"I take resposibility"

[Ruckus]

Hardly.......... and the media couldnt be more than willing to forgive the neo-cons

http://www.fair.org/index.php


gg corporate controlled media

[chew]

Learn how to spell responsibility you asshole!

[Ruckus]

i just wanted to remind everyone who actually said it     

[stas]

Another chew in the Ruck's column.

[DragonMage]

0 chews out of 5

[Ruckus]

chew, you got a 0 and your CHEW

[Blade]

0/5 Chews, but scores well on the Titus scale.

  7/10 Titus's (Good)

[dusty]

I personally think the titus scale should be in reverse.

The less tituses the better. YUO KNOE?

[superorc]

0/5 Chews, but scores well on the Titus scale.

  7/10 Titus's (Good)

I nominate that for post of the year. 

[Zeradul]

Hardly.......... and the media couldnt be more than willing to forgive the neo-cons

http://www.fair.org/index.php

gg corporate controlled media

  I start to feel sick when some dumbass site starts babling about fairness in the media, then claims to be a fair source, and THEN in the next breath says donate money to us if YOU:

Think the media is too soft on Team Bush?

Ugh, what filthy, slimy, hypocrites.  It's like the Dali Llama running around preaching peace and honestly, and then raising money and SECRETLY using it to fund a GORILLA WAR against Communist China in order for the Llama class to be re-instated so that they can once again enslave their uneducated consituents.

You can't disagree here Ruck.  You can't claim to be fair and accurate and Blatently show bias with your agenda sticking out like an elephant behind a tree.  Pathetic.  I mean, this is what Fox news does.  It's almost the same words!  But at least Fox doesn't beg for your money.

[Ruckus]

ummm  okay...... so If it didnt need sponsorship and was funded by walmart then wouldnt you be suspicious of all of its stories on walmart or lack of stories ?  If you seem to agree then THATS MY POINT !! 

and if you dont agree give it 0 out of 5 chews and move on 

[GeleshkA]

Don't be angered by what the media tells you...be angered by what it doesn't.

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0307h.asp

The patriot act has us 1 step away from Nazi Germany.

I've been saying this for 4 years now.

How many of you have read the act(s)?

[Blade]

The Patriot Act was instated due to paranoid politicians wanting (at least temporarily, although Bush wanted some of it permanently) some definitive avenue towards removing outside threats. There are/were too many "ACLU APPROVED" loophole laws that would allow assholes of all shapes and sizes to get away with illegal activities, and the Patriot Act helped to curb that.

If you're innocent, you shouldn't even worry about it. That's my logic: why complain about a terrorist or criminal-oriented Act when you're legit? Does everybody have something to hide? Otherwise, I don't understand this hatred towards the Patriot Act. The USA is not Nazi Germany. We are a completely different country built on completely different values (i.e. there's no chance in hell we'd let our leader commit mass genocide) and for this reason I'm certain that a "total libertarian" POV regarding civil liberties is just a tad eccentric.

Nazi Germany was a whole different monster. They took guns away, while the average Republican viewpoint is all about the Second Amendment. One of many differences.

Besides, the Patriot Act is slowly being deactivated anyway...

[GeleshkA]

Ah but Blade my friend, you miss the point.

We are so very, very close to NAZI Germany in so many ways because of the Patriot act.
All one would have to do is simply accuse you of terroristic activities and the government could detain you and try you with not so much as a phone call allowed to you.
They don't even have to tell you WHY you're being detained.  that's the rule of our law now...and the Patriot act makes it so.

"If you're innocent, you shouldn't even worry about it."

A persons innocence has nothing to do with it as under this regime, and allowed by this act, you are GUILTY until proven innocent.
and an accusation is ALL that's needed.

In fact, if I were to phone the FBI and accuse you of terrorism, they could now legally break in your door and rip you out of your home, without a warrent for search or arrest and detain you for an unlimited amount of time.  It's purely their discretion.

How is that not exactly like Nazi Germany?

"there's no chance in hell we'd let our leader commit mass genocide"
I'm sure the people in Germany thought that at one point as well...and then were rounded up by their government and detained/killed for their dissenting points of view ( or in this case, accusations of terrorism ).

Tyranny wears many faces.
history repeats it's self.

[Blade]

You're right, Gel. I understand.

My point was that I agree with the ideals of the Patriot Act. Whether or not they're taken to an extreme in the actual Act or not.. I'm not sure. Never read it myself.

The fact of the matter is, we had in a heightened sense of security after 9/11... and the Patriot Act alleviated those woes.

The whole idea of (for example) you phoning me into the feds is probably along the same lines of phoning me in for... say... counterfeiting 50 years ago. I wouldn't be counterfeiting (as I wouldn't be a terrorist) so regardless it's just a waste of time for the feds and a waste of a period of my life because you decided to jokingly prank call somebody.

I think the government needed more power in the years immediately following 9/11 and thus I agree with the PA's use over that time. Now that the terror risk is lower, I wouldn't mind seeing the PA slowly melt into history.

[stas]

After reading last few posts i still believe that if you did not do anything, then you have nothing to worry about it.
Here is a good example. Right after London bombings earlier this year NYC began doing random bag searches. Few people have complained long and hard about it, yet for the most part majority did not seem to mind. I have not seen a single person refusing or even complain about a search when police pulled them over. To me that is signal that its not as big of a problem as it was presented to be. Yet i believe effects are quiet material. I don't know if i feel safer riding subways under this system, but the mere presence of more police is a sure deterrent.
You can draw an analogy between a subway bag search and taping into phone call.

[Blade]

Good point.

Sure, I'd love to see a world where you don't have to lock your house/car. Where police aren't necessary and people can carry whatever sensible equipment they want aboard a plane (i.e. knife for that tricky airline steak!) but unfortunately the world isn't perfect. The government wants to keep its people safe, and bag searches are part of this.

What harm is it unless you're carrying something illegal? Who cares about privacy if the only people seeing your stuff are a neutral party?

If you don't want somebody to find your illegal drugs or illegal sidearm, then don't break the law in the first place.

(although I'm pretty sure you can carry weapons in the US now..)

[neotic]

Very interesting report of real application of the Patriot Act; http://judiciary.house.gov/Media/pdfs/PATR...heField0704.pdf

You be the judge. A few snippets:

* Prosecutors and investigators also used information shared pursuant to sections
218 and 504 of the USA PATRIOT Act in investigating the defendants in the socalled
“Virginia Jihad” case. This prosecution involved members of the Dar al-
Arqam Islamic Center, who trained for jihad in Northern Virginia by participating
in paintball and paramilitary training, including eight individuals who traveled to
terrorist training camps in Pakistan or Afghanistan between 1999 and 2001.
These individuals are associates of a violent Islamic extremist group known as
Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET), which primarily operates in Pakistan and Kashmir and
has ties to the al Qaeda terrorist network. As the result of an investigation that
included the use of information obtained through FISA, prosecutors were able to
bring charges against these individuals. Six of the defendants have pleaded
guilty, and three were convicted at trial in March 2004 of charges including
conspiracy to levy war against the United States and conspiracy to provide
material support to the Taliban. These nine defendants received sentences
ranging from a prison term of four years to life imprisonment.

* The information sharing between intelligence and law enforcement personnel
made possible by sections 218 and 504 of the USA PATRIOT Act was useful in
the investigation of two Yemeni citizens, Mohammed Ali Hasan Al-Moayad and
Mohshen Yahya Zayed, who were charged last year with conspiring to provide
material support to al Qaeda and HAMAS. The complaint against these two
individuals alleges that an FBI undercover operation developed information that
Al-Moayad had boasted that he had personally handed Usama Bin Laden $20
million from his terrorist fund-raising network and that Al-Moayad and Zayed
flew from Yemen to Frankfurt, Germany in 2003 with the intent to obtain $2
million from a terrorist sympathizer (portrayed by a confidential informant) who
wanted to fund al Qaeda and HAMAS. During their meetings, Al-Moayad and
Zayed specifically promised the donor that his money would be used to support
HAMAS, al Qaeda, and any other mujahideen, and “swore to Allah” that they
would keep their dealings secret. Al-Moayad and Zayed were extradited to the
United States from Germany in November 2003 and are currently awaiting trial.

* The Department used sections 218 and 504 to gain access to intelligence, which
facilitated the indictment of Enaam Arnaout, the Executive Director of the
Illinois-based Benevolence International Foundation (BIF). Arnaout conspired to
obtain charitable donations fraudulently in order to provide financial assistance to
Chechen rebels and organizations engaged in violence and terrorism. Arnaout
had a long-standing relationship with Usama Bin Laden and used his charity
organization both to obtain funds illicitly from unsuspecting Americans for
terrorist organizations, such as al Qaeda, and to serve as a channel for people to
contribute money knowingly to such groups. Arnaout ultimately pleaded guilty to
a racketeering charge, admitting that he diverted thousands of dollars from BIF to
support Islamic militant groups in Bosnia and Chechnya. He was sentenced to
over 11 years in prison.

[DragonMage]

The responses by stas and Blade are the exact responses the government is looking for. You have to broaden your viewpoint and understand that this is a step in the direction of complete government control. The fact remains that it is my right (or was my right) as an American to privately carry what I please. I cannot stress how important it is that we retain our rights to privacy as individuals.

I need not quote the saying about absolute power, as I'm sure it is well known, but in this case it certainly rings true. The more rights you willingly hand over to the government, the worse off you are as a citizen of the United States. Keep in mind that the information they are gathering on you is going to be SUBJECTIVELY INTERPRETED, and if they dislike what they see (even on a whim!), you are suddenly at their mercy. Sound pleasant? Of course not. And given the state of paranoia the government seems to be operating within, I'm certainly not ready to put my trust  in their judgement.

I would rather live my life as a truly free American, than sacrifice those liberties for what the almighty government tells me is my "safety." Hitler's actions were all in the name of the safety of his citizens, right?

[Blade]

Hitler was also insane.

I'm all for the complete freedom you speak of, RDM, but let me ask you this..

Why have a law prohibiting something, but simultaneously allowing the same thing if people keep it "hidden"?

[Blade]

Hitler was also insane.

I'm all for the complete freedom you speak of, RDM, but let me ask you this..

Why have a law prohibiting something, but simultaneously allow the same thing if people keep it "hidden"?

[Stinger]

I'm a very vocal opponent of our current administration. I'm also very vocal about how marijuana should be decriminalized (If not legalized), "traditional family values" should not be a part of the governments reasoning stance, nor should religion.

Before the patriot act went into full swing, I got hatemail from "secretary@usdoj.gov". Personalized. Long hand.

I... am not a threat to this country. I'm a dipshit comedean with a decent sized soapbox. That's it. But I have to be afraid that our country is keeping a file on my activities so they can label me a dissident, and a threat. That's just fucked up. That's what's wrong with the patriot act. I am an innocent man, but I'm in a position where if I think the government is watching me, there's a decent chance it's not just paranoia brought about by a psychotic episode. That... is fucked up.

On a related note; I'm an extreme liberal with extremely liberal female "acquaintances". I have been in the position in the past where I was traveling, via airplane, with a variety of sex toys in my bag. Now, I'm also not shy, incase any of you haven't figured that one out, but I can tell you, having to open up your bag in front of a large crowd and having various sex toys pulled out one at a time can get a bit uncomfortable. Did you know that that if you have a battery-powered device in your bag, it must be turned on to prove it's not a bomb? That can get old around "Vibrating Dildo #3".

Just throwing that out there as a collateral "that's fucked".

[DragonMage]

Hitler was also insane.

I'm all for the complete freedom you speak of, RDM, but let me ask you this..

Why have a law prohibiting something, but simultaneously allowing the same thing if people keep it "hidden"?

You're right, Hitler was insane, but that is completely beside the point I was making. Ask yourself why his citizenship bought into his laws of oppression, and therein lies my point. Given the wartime situation Hitler himself created, they believed they would be safer by relinquishing some freedoms. By the time they realized what was going on, 6 million human beings were murdered. Yes, Hitler was insane, and Bush is not about to begin the systematic slaughtering of US citizens, but the end result of his policies was government control. I believe there was a quote by Josef Goebbles stating that so long as your citizens honestly believe they are in some way under attack, it is a very simple matter to begin clipping freedoms. Do I need to state the obvious connection here?

A law prohibiting an act does not automatically bring with it a law prohibiting your privacy. It's that simple. Under something such as the Patriot Act, we are all essentially suspects in some way, and that is a dangerous situation.

[Blade]

Nobody's tagged me yet, and I haven't been attending church!

[DragonMage]

I'm on the phone with the feds as we speak, traitor!

[rue]

The type of "lockdown" mentality the Third Reich underwent had very little difference to what the Roosevelt administration put us under during the same period.   Both governments' policies were far tighter than the Patriot Act.  Some examples of the U.S.'s actions:

-Internment camps for Japanese citizens
-FBI investigations on higher ups with relations to Germany, Italy and Japan (including Einstein)
-Reading mail sent from GIs to their families
-FBI raids on suspected Axis sympathisers

But of course, that was a just war, where as the War on Terror is a broad conspiracy by the Bush administration where an attack on the WTC and Pentagon was negotiated with the Saudi family in order to...what?  Allow President Bush to listen to Admar Alawi, a tech at a nuclear facility, call his grandmother every Sunday?  Or maybe WWII wasn't a just war and Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor so he could rebound a struggling economy.  Yup, everyone in the history of government is lieing to the populace so they can get more money and power than they already have so they can jump into their piles of gold and swim around like Scrooge McDuck on "Duck Tales".   Further, anyone who has any amount of wealth should never be trusted under any circumstances because they obviously had to subvert and cheat to gain their wealth.  No one ever accomplishes anything great by honest means. 

....


The government doesn't scare me.  You people do.

[Blade]

Penn and Teller: Bullshit! did cover conspiracy theories in an episode.

[neotic]

wow rue, that was quite nicely put.

[DragonMage]

Nicely put? He started ranting along partisian lines that I have nothing to do with while simultaneously touching upon subjects I wasn't close to touching upon! It's a classic (patented!) Chris Doil tactic! 

[GeleshkA]

Rue, I take it that you have not actualy read the Patriot act yet.

most people haven't...
Which is exactly what the Government is counting on.

Don;t take my word for it - read the act(s)