CNN & New Yorker - Bush Planned Lebanon War Months Before

[dusty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5eBrfrWoTk

-POURS GASOLINE ON THE FIRE

[neotic]

Assuming such is true, there is a simple solution, don't cause incidents or allow others within your country to cause incidents that may allow another country to use it as an excuse for war.

[Ruckus]

how come israel can go into gaza and "detain" dozens of hamas government officials (CIVILAINS btw) and when hezbolla " kidnaps"  2 israeli soldiers, its an abomination ? And yes israel crossed the border to do that repeatedly.

notice the terms used to describe these actions in quotes, its the same way the mainstream media feeds people the propaganda daily. 

and if you think that the "detaining" of israeli soldiers was the start of it , you have fallen into the same memory hole conundrum that the mainstream media has. Have fun asking someone for a clue.

Bush and the neocons are going to carpet bomb iran .... disabling hezbolla and hamas are the beginning.

HEIL !!!

[joel]

Assuming such is true, there is a simple solution, don't cause incidents or allow others within your country to cause incidents that may allow another country to use it as an excuse for war.

If you think this is realistic, you really need to come back to reality.

[rue]

Since we're speaking in generalities, I have a few questions as well.

How come the people of Lebanon are celebrating a victory today after a month of death?  What future precedent does this set to an increasingly turbulent middle east if a clandescent militia operating in a democratic country, can agitate a superior military into conflict, resulting in mass death, and call itself victorious?

If Israel started all this as you imply, what POSSIBLE good can come of the "tactical" manuever of stealing a nation's soldiers, OTHER than rallying support for your own cause?  Rallying support for your OWN cause is something you only do if you wish to come to brinks with your opponent, not make your peace.  If one of your coworkers has caught your ire, and is looking to make ammends, he doesn't hold your family hostage until you swear to be his friend again. 

Which leads to my next question.  In the middle east, the mass tangle of a mess that is, who would find a lasting peace more advantageous of the two remaining primary players?  Iran or Israel?  Keep in mind that Israel, although never officially admitting to it (but no conspiracy theories are necessary to know the answer to this one), has had the ability to make Iran a cold and lonely place since 1979.  That was 4 wars ago.

Edit: This, imo, is the most important question of all.  Let's form a logical arguement.  There are 4 answers within the realm of possibillity. 
a) Iran is looking for war, Israel is looking for war
b) Iran is looking for war, Israel is looking for peace
c) Iran is looking for peace, Israel is looking for war
d) Iran and Israel are both looking for peace.  Which of these is more likely? 

My opinion: C and D are right out for me.  Research some of the things President Ahmadinejad has done in just one year of presidency.  It's a mix between the second coming of The Cultural Revolution and The Spanish Inquisition.  Professors of good, logical science are being replaced by Koran-thumping (haha) fundamentalists.  He's called the Holocaust a myth.  He's said that Israel should be "wiped off the earth now and forever more".   That leaves A and B for me.  I need more developments to make my decision about what the current intent of Israel is.     

How come Hezbollah can fire rockets without guidance systems with ball bearing payloads (if I have to spell it out any clearer, you do not fire ball bearings at random into a city if you're trying to hit troops) and come out innocent in your eyes? 

What amount of violence on the part of Hezbollah would have been justified by Israel's actions?  Apparently not that capture of 3 Israeli soldiers.  What then?  20? 50? 1,000? Is that what violence is for?  To get even?  Is that what you think, Ruck?  It's revenge? ---If we were having a debate of another nature, let's say capital punishment, and it came to light that perhaps in a calendar year 3 people were executed and later found innocent, would you then tell me that such a small injustice has no bearing on the long run and should be forgotten in the name of some greater good?  What kind of ethics is that? I thought your beef with government was over this very axiom--that the government steamrolls the less important in favor of some other good (like the poor for example). 

What are you implying by saying the media is fabricating the capture of Israel soldiers? Did someone not build a tunnel underneath an Israeli observation post and capture 2 soldiers (A third taken later)?  Were 3 arms bearing Israeli citizens not forcefully taken against their will? Did Hezbollah not claim responsibility for the act, as all such organizations do so as to make it clear who the credit (and thus the prestige) should go to?  Be specific, such an accusation without evidence is merely an accusation.

How come religious fanatics like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are despised by you, but a Holy War against the infidels is tolerated?

What do you believe in anymore, Ruck?  A victory in your eyes?  Or a victory for all?

[Ruckus]

DD we can easily go back and forth on this if youd like.

I will agree its a mess. But what drives me insane is how its played out in the media here. Its outrageous ! A propaganda paradise !

the funny thing is, this mess could have been averted with less civilian toll on both sides , much less lechewese of course (no conspiracy theory needed there). If the players involved in the current ceasfire went to the table a month ago instead of a month later. And now your leader is claiming an israeli victory. Havent we heard that before  ?  *cough mission accomplished*

the ball bearing tipped rockets are a travesty but so are the CLUSTER bombs, wait , the AMERICAN MADE cluster bombs israel dropped all over lechewon, in civilian areas mind you. You can only blame hezbolla's urchew warfare, human shield chicken shit fighting style so much when you use CLUSTER BOMBS in inhabited urchew areas.

and israel knows better than to attack iran. Would it win, with the american made technology we supply them with, surely it would prevail. Of course once it dropped its first nuke or carpet bombed its first city then all of the middle east would converge on israel and the whole place would be a sheet of glass.... Including israel.

And I know you cant be blinded by the american media yourself DD ....  we can go back as far as you want in time. Israel was never welcomed after muslim lands were anexxed for its creation. You use the co-worker analogy how about the WALMART ANALOGY 

one day you come home from work and find a bulldozer knocking your house down. Why is this happening you ask ? My family has lived here for generations on this very land. My great great grandparents are buried in back of the lot.  Because Walmart is building a store here and you have been "Imminent domained" out of the area, say 500 miles out of the area.

What would you do ?  Just turn and walk away right ?

And lastly, israel has crossed the boarder repeatedly for years assasinating hamas and hezbolla people and/or officials with tons of collateral damage.  Israelis civilians are dying as well I know that. Everyone knows that, thats the only thing reported on the nightly news.     At last estimate it was a 10:1 ratio for this conflict.... 

You know WORLD WAR 3 !!!!!!!!!

^^^^^^^^ lol @ faux news

and you should know my view on religion by now DD !  Its the IRON-foil hat conspiracy theory !!  the C.T. to end all C.T.'s
I could care less about any religion, its all one big mindcontrol machine anyways.

/EDIT : Im too tired to edit mine in response tonight, we'll continue tom 

/edit : nice chew references scrotch or blade or whoever   

[zipfruder]

There is no valid peace solution that keeps Israel as a jewish dominated state.

The current "peace" plan has a calls for a seperate palestinian state. The problem with that is Israelis seem to hot on the idea of walls to keep out their enemies, and seem none too keen on learn about how walls like that fail badly.

The basic logistics of a such a plan is this: Palestine depends on Israel for its economic livelyhood, and israel would perfer to ignore them into non-existance. Palestianians get angry at Israel's basic crippling of their economy, unemployed men go attack israeli's citizens, israel replies in kind, but with bigger bats, Palestinains takes the shredded remains of their gloves off, hezbollah decides its wants a piece of the action.

This will be over when: Israelis' realize that they can semites and still be anti-semitic(Palestinains are semites too), be will to bleed themselves dry to rebuild the palestinan economy they've pretty much killed, or the UN gets a spine, sends in a large army to the region, and redraws the borders properly.

[GeleshkA]

It's a pretty simple deal really.

The U.S NEEDS a strong arm in the middle east.  Through the creation of Isreal, we have that.
Anything Isreal does will be painted in a favorable light by the "mainstream" media ( and I HATE that term..as if other news sources are some how not valid ).  The creation of Isreal was totaly for this reason and had nothing to do with the jews killed in WW2.  If we cared about the mass slaughter of a group of people, we'd have given that cash and support to the Russians who lost 20X's the amount of people durring that war.  But alas, we didn't need a strong arm in Russia at the time.   Any other explaination for the creation of that state is simply ill-informed.

Ok - so now we have our strong arm.  Well, in simply taking that land from other people, you've created a LOT of hostility from the natives of said lands.  Imagine if China came over and took over your state and kicked all the people out, so they could give that land to another group of people, for WHATEVER reason.   I don't know how much intestinal fortitude you have, but I'd be fighting mad about it...and I stress the word fighting.

Add to this, that the land that was used is considered Holy ground to Christians, Jews and Muslims - as each of those religions worship the same exact GOD (the GOD of Abram).  So now you've not only got pissed off people who are displaced, but you've got pissed off people that want their Holy land back.  It all adds up to an unending war.

The entire world knows this and knows that America funded the creation of Isreal and armed the country ( If you don't know, Isreal's prime export is weaponry ) and as such, transfers the hatred of that take over of land directly to America.  These people don't hate our freedoms, they envy them.....they hate our fingers in their pie - they Hate isreal and by proxy, the U.S.

It will never stop until one side wipes out the other...or until that land is returned.

U.S will support Isreal even if they use NUKES. 

What will happen is the gradual occupation of the entire middle east, because WE ( the world ) are running out of oil..FAST.

[rue]

Some quick fact corrections:  (Edit: It WAS quick.  The trouble with history is that every little piece is important.  If I tell you that the United States dropped the hydrogen bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, but I don't give you dates on either---well, that gives you a very different perspective on things, doesn't it?)

The territory that is now Israel was owned by an Arab nation before the current nation of Israel was founded - FALSE

The land contained by Le-b-anon (typing the letters b-a-n in the forum now turns the word to "chew") in the north, the Mediterranean in the west, Jordan to the east, and Egypt to the south was owned by the British after WWI.  They gained the land from the collapsing Ottoman Empire as part of the treaty signifying the surrender of the Central powers (Britain, as well as France, also gained other portions of the former Ottoman Empire).  As anti-semitism increased to a fever in the years leading up to WWII in many European countries, millions of Jews flocked to the then nation of Palestine, having no where else to go.  After WWII, Britain, having come mere months short of losing everything, gave back several million miles of real estate all over the world to various countries, believing that their massive empire had played a part in their unpreparedness for both world wars.  Palestine was one such territory they relinquished.  Since Palestine was now a mixed state, Great Britain did the responsible thing.  Rather than packing up and leaving them to a civil war (*cough cough* Congressman Murtha, learn your history please), they handed over jurisdiction of the country to the United Nations.

The UN security council, particularly the US, took part in the decision to make the former Palestine into a Jewish State, called Israel - FALSE

Fearing bias on the issue, the UN formed a council of eleven nations (none of the security council members) to decide what should be done with Britain's former territory.  They decided to split the country into two states: one arab, one jew.  How exactly this council didn't figure that doing so was no better than leaving them to fight the civil war is just another one of many examples of the UN's ineptitude with its attempts to do what is "fair" instead of what works.   The newly formed Arab League (Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Lechewon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia) opposed the plan.  They wanted the UN to show jurisprudence to the fact that Palestine was two thirds Muslim, and only one third Jew, and create one nation with majority rule. 

(If you're wondering why in the world the council didn't think of this in the first place, please consider.  Hitler had many friends to make in the Arab world.  They had been trying to perform his genocide for a millenium, and here he was carrying it out more efficiently than they had ever been able to.  In 1940, the leader of the precursor of the Arab League, the Arab High Committee, asked Hitler for his assistance in performing The Final Solution in Palestine, believing then that an Axis victory was inevitable, and knowing that Hitler would do better with an Arab ally controlling and doing his dirty work in Palestine, than an outsider.  This was not the general belief nor wish of all the Arab people, mind you, but remember this was a time where news came from a newspaper clipping that could only be so long, and the headline was "ARAB LEADER SEEKS GENOCIDE IN MIDDLE EAST".  The Arabs proved their worth by shunning this leader from power and moving forward, but that was not until after the UN 11 council's decision had been made.  Leaving Palestine in the control of the Muslims, and by default the Arab League, was seen as leaving the Jews to suffer another Holocaust.  Back to Palestine...)     

 Great Britain, having hoped to avoid this situation, rejected the council's plan outright, and threatened to leave its troops in Palestine until the council came up with a better plan.  However, after great pressure from the General Assembly, GB finally ceded and gave up control.  The war began within hours.

  The crux of the Arab's defeat again falls back to WWII.   In the beginning of that war, Britain was reluctant to call upon Jews or Arabs from Palestine to serve in the British Army.  Palestine was already a mess, and arming the people with weapons certainly didn't seem like a good idea, as there was no telling who the people would point such weapons at.  However, as we all know, things got very bad for Britain, very fast, and they were prepared to take risks.   As mentioned above, it was hard to trust Muslims because while The Holocaust was not widely known of, Hitler's anti-semitism was (Mein Kampf), and again, SOME Muslims (not all!!) had a soft spot for someone who was all about exterminating Jews.  It was decided that a Palestinian brigade would be formed to fight the Axis, but only of Jews (and if you think about it, the Jews had a vested interest in cooperating with a nation fighting Hitler, no?) .  When the war ended, these military vets returned to Palestine fresh off a war that tought them all they ever needed to know about modern warfare.  The Arabs, by comparison, are TO THIS DAY still fighting war like they did during the Crusades: Holy Knights dueling the opposition--working independently on the battlefield-- only now the horseback sword weilding champion is replaced by infantry fighters or even sometimes tank drivers.  They didn't have a chance. 

The nation of Israel declared its independence.  The hatred on both sides led to a mass exchange of populations.  The Muslims within Israel were granted full rights as Israeli citizens, but again no conspiracies necessary to figure out that they were not wanted.  Jews in Arab countries, once tolerated, were met with hatred over the atrocity their brethren had committed, and got the hint that they too were not wanted, and fled to Israel. 

Okay, back to life!  Tomorrow's lesson is entitled: Why the Middle East Needs to Sell Us Oil Just as Much as We Need to Buy It.  Please bring your notebooks.  There will be a Quiz on Monday.

[GeleshkA]

  last bit brought a chuckle.
I assume you take issue with my points