Police State

[Zeradul]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5691887

"We have adopted the commonsense view that bundling and concealment of large amounts of currency, combined with other suspicious circumstances, supports a connection between money and drug trafficking."

HAVING MONEY IN YOUR POSSESSION IS PROOF OF BEING CRIMINAL.  Your Money will be seized and NOT given back.

That's a police state.

THEY STOLE THIS MAN'S LIFE SAVINGS without ANY evidence that he had done ANYTHING wrong.

The subsequent court cases (first one ruled in his favor, second one did NOT) the cases themselves are entitled:

“United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency.” Yes, the government had levied a case against an inanimate pile of money.

http://fp.uni.edu/northia/article2.asp?ID=4940&SECTION=2

[Zeradul]

This is how insane the War on Drugs has become.  They can steal money and property from TOTALLY INNOCENT people, with no evidence and win a CIRCUT COURT CASE.

Or let me clarify.  It is not a war on drugs.  It is a war on rights.  Not just the rights to use drugs, but the rights that are infringed upon by the police and others who pry into your life in the name of DRUGS.  The war on drugs is just another way to fuck with us, scare us into paying for more police, more jails, and more bureaucrats to make more laws that restrict our liberties.

You know every President in the past 40 years has supported it AND increased funding for the War on Drugs!.

There's only one solution.

[Ruckus]

This may stray a little from your topic Zera, sorry   

Alexander Tyler wrote this a while back and not about the USA, but about the Athenians.... the redundant cyclical nature of this paradigm is what is so perplexing to me.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

[rue]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

[Blade]

It's true, really. The US isn't necessarily going to fall into such a trap, of course.

[Ruckus]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

DD , I assume your point to be, aside from the debunking of the quote itself, to show that conservative voters/candidates will not allow this to happen ?

I disagree on the grounds that the money trail always eventually ends up at the same origin. Wether its welfare for the poor or corporate-investor bailouts. The sad thing I see in all of it is how many of the steps we've already taken.

sorry for the hijack zera 

[dusty]

[rue]

I think you combined my post and Blade's together, Ruck.  I merely wished to point out that no Alexander Tyler ever provided such a quote.  I did not write the article comparing counties' murder rates of people who voted for Gore and people who voted for Bush.

[rue]

But yes, two side effects of contemporary liberalism are dependency and apathy. 

"And so my fellow Americans: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

[Blade]

My post is actually in support of Ruck, but then disagreeing that the US is becoming a police state.

Even though there are undoubtably some Patriot Act laws (and others) in place that support such an argument.

[Ruckus]

Even though there are undoubtably some Patriot Act laws (and others) in place that support such an argument.

Applauds blade, and his TRUE conservative views.

[rue]

So should I check the legitimacy of your sig quote or did you actually put some time into this one?

[Ruckus]

So should I check the legitimacy of your sig quote or did you actually put some time into this one?

I STOLE IT !!


but if you want to put your time into it go ahead   

[Blade]

Ruck: And by "Patriot Act laws that support this argument", I mean your argument.

I'm not a liberal yet, Ruck. But, I'm no fool either.

[m J o]

I PITY DA FOO

[joel]

The US has some fucked up anti-terrorism and anti-drug laws, but they are far from being a police state.

The way that society works now is very much unlike many previous eras and thanks to globalization, we're in a completely different era with more difficult to see results.

But yes, two side effects of contemporary liberalism are dependency and apathy

This opinion is pretty ignorant and biased with no base whatsoever.  Apathy I completely disagree with and dependancy I can see as being more understandable and can see where you're going with it, but I disagree with it as well.

[rue]

Joel wants me to write another book.

[joel]

nah, we'll discuss it later

[DragonMage]

Write away, author Doil!

[rue]

nah, we'll discuss it later

Yes!  Pillow Talk!

[dusty]

Joel wants me to write another book.

I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU

[Ruckus]

ooooooooooo  DD youve been DARED !!

[wargasm]

I'm not a liberal yet, Ruck. But, I'm no fool either.

redundancy ftw.

[Zeradul]

I'm not suggesting the US is a Police state yet, but examples of idiocy like this one are NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN here.  There is no excuse.  You can't convict a guy with NO evidence.  This is outrageous and scary.

Part of my original posts in this thread was pure dismay and utter sadness that something so unjust could have happened in THIS country.

[zipfruder]

Thats not a example of a police state. thats an example of extreme stupidity.

Gonzales flew to nebraska to buy a refrigerator truck. He decided to have someone else rent a car for him, and speed it down the road.

Why rent a car, when he had a enough cash to fly back home? They didn't seize the cash when he got on and off the plane to nebraska.

We need to stop treating "victims" like they can do no wrong.

[DragonMage]

Thats not a example of a police state. thats an example of extreme stupidity.

Gonzales flew to nebraska to buy a refrigerator truck. He decided to have someone else rent a car for him, and speed it down the road.

Why rent a car, when he had a enough cash to fly back home? They didn't seize the cash when he got on and off the plane to nebraska.

We need to stop treating "victims" like they can do no wrong.

I agree to some degree zip, but the problem here is that the court has circumstantial evidence at best. Remember that a rental car is driven by hundreds of people per year. At times you may step into the vehicle hours after someone else has just stepped out. The fact that the narcotics dog smelled a narcotic substance in the back seat really amounts to nothing more than the arousal of suspicion, NOT hard evidence. The same can be said about the money, being that money visits thousands of places and hands before it falls into your posession. Again, very suspicious but not proof of anything.

His excuse for renting the car in another mans name being that he had no credit card and lived a lifestyle of cash-only transactions is certainly valid. Can anyone here say that he is 100% innocent? Of couse not. The problem lies in that the evidence does not come CLOSE to proving his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and that is what is a bit scary. A sane court would have no option but to give an innocent verdict.

I'm sure we have all been in situations that, if approached and scrutinized by an authority figure, would look very suspicious from someone elses perspective. To be found guilty based on this suspicion should be something that never happens.

Why rent the car when he had a enough cash to fly back home? I don't know. Why does anyone do anything? Maybe he had other business to attend to. Maybe he wanted to explore the area. Maybe he wanted to take the scenic route back. The point is it has no bearing on the charges unless they prove that the rental car was somehow being used in a crime. Otherwise, it would be like me being picked up in a police cruiser because while walking 5 miles to my town center to get some excersize, a policeman stopped me for jaywalking and discovered I had $1000 on me in cash, which I had won at the casino the night before and hadn't had a chance to deposit. He also discovers a knife in my pocket and decides to arrest me because anyone strolling around with a large sum of money on their person and a weapon must be a hitman. It would be absurd, much like this case.

[Zeradul]

Thats not a example of a police state. thats an example of extreme stupidity.

Gonzales flew to Nebraska to buy a refrigerator truck. He decided to have someone else rent a car for him, and speed it down the road.

Why rent a car, when he had a enough cash to fly back home? They didn't seize the cash when he got on and off the plane to Nebraska.

When I first heard about this in the news, those reasons were explained.  Why he flew, why he rented, etc, etc.  Those two articles were just the first two I could find, but I'm sure there are articles out there that explain those reasons.  I don't have time to look now, but I'm with a little looking any of you can find it.

And perfectly said DM.

We need to stop treating "victims" like they can do no wrong.

And zip, in this country we have "Innocent until proven guilty".  Ok?  So "victims" need to be treated with all the respect that ANY HUMAN deserves until they are proven guilty.  That's the deal.  The day the Police and the Government can single out individuals and punish them without evidence is a REALLY scary day for all of us.

[wargasm]

And zip, in this country we have "Innocent until proven guilty".

don't kid yourself.

[Zeradul]

Clearly War, there are examples to the contrary, like this, however, a few misguided or corrupt cops/judges/etc will not win in the long run.  "Innocent until proven guilty" is what we aspire to have here.  A little corruption here or there will be stamped out.  EVEN if that means dismantling the Patriot Act it going down in history with a superscript noting the scary similarities to Hitler's "Enabling Act".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act

[wargasm]

I'm not talking about corruption.  I'm talking about how the system actually works and it has jack and shit to do with the patriot act.

you'd be amazed how much your hands are tied when it comes to defending yourself against false accusation in our current legal system.