Loose Change

[wargasm]

aint this a bitch.

"Rowe and his collaborator, Dylan Avery, 22, actually started writing Loose Change as a fictional screenplay--"loosely based around us discovering that 9/11 was an inside job,""

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-2,00.html

[GeleshkA]

controlled media ftw!

[Ruckus]

"so we decided to pull it"

[wargasm]

this is seriously all you've got to respond with?


tsk tsk.

[joel]

COME ON MAN CONTROLLED EXPLOSIVES

[Zeradul]

I havne't kept up wtih this forum as much, so I'm assuming you've all already seen this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6596630292015140276&q=loose+change+screw

It dismantles the challenges presented by the Loose Change video.

[Ruckus]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14723997/

Neither side said anything of WTC 7


the memory hole is unbelievable

[Zeradul]

The video I linked to talks about it in detail.

[Ruckus]

Im at work and cant view it atm. In synopsis what reason is given Zera ?

[Zeradul]

Sure, one corner of the building had a massive wound 18 stories high from the other WTC destruction.  This caused a bulge in the lower sections of another area of the building.  According to firemen, the entire time they were fighting the fires they heard loud creaking sounds and many of them were understandably uneasy about the building.  The bulge continued to grow and the analysis was made that the building was going to collapse.  They 'PULLED' the firemen out and the fires went un-fought for a few hours as the bulge continued to flex out until it gave way, and by that point there's no stopping that large and that heavy a building.

It also debunks the whole insurance aspect, as it has cost the owner way more more out of pocket to rebuild than the insurance company had to pay.  Plus, why would the owner be told about this plan anyways?  Why would this ultra top secret government nonsense waste time to save some guy a few billion dollars?

They also debunk the controlled explosions myth, as explosions of that type send shock waves down the massive metal beams and deep into the ground, and then are picked up by seismographs even long distances away.  Nothing was picked up.  They also talked about the tremendous noise controlled explosives make, and how it was unmistakably absent.

There's more, that's all I can recall off the top of my head.

[Ruckus]

alot of what you said and what is presented has a strong arguement but there are still many discrepancies in their case.


1 of which is the fact that if a building ( a concrete reinforced steel structure ) was to be partially compromised as indicated, it would not implode upon itself at near freefall speed. It would partially collapse as in the Oklahoma city bombing. And when the siezmograph for each towers collapse never went over 2.3 there is no excuse.  And if you need any basis for that arguement just research japanese skyscrapers which sustain earthquakes twice as intense on a yearly basis and NEVER collapse much less implode upon themselves.

Let me remind you that there have only been 3 concrete reinforced steel structure building collapses in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and they all happened on 9/11/01. And one of them was an innocent bystander that happened to contain alot of criminal papers or large corporations BTW that took TRILLIONS of dollars from the military. A fact Rumsfeld himself anounced on sept 10th 2001. But no one remembers that do they ?  2.3 trillion to be exact : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

OMFG now thats a coincidence     

[zipfruder]

alot of what you said and what is presented has a strong arguement but there are still many discrepancies in their case.


1 of which is the fact that if a building ( a concrete reinforced steel structure ) was to be partially compromised as indicated, it would not implode upon itself at near freefall speed. It would partially collapse as in the Oklahoma city bombing. And when the siezmograph for each towers collapse never went over 2.3 there is no excuse.  And if you need any basis for that arguement just research japanese skyscrapers which sustain earthquakes twice as intense on a yearly basis and NEVER collapse much less implode upon themselves.

Let me remind you that there have only been 3 concrete reinforced steel structure building collapses in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and they all happened on 9/11/01. And one of them was an innocent bystander that happened to contain alot of criminal papers or large corporations BTW that took TRILLIONS of dollars from the military. A fact Rumsfeld himself anounced on sept 10th 2001. But no one remembers that do they ?  2.3 trillion to be exact : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

OMFG now thats a coincidence     

The Murrah building didn't have 2 110 story buildings collapse beside it, shedding debris on ot it. Why do people dismiss that? Where did you think the fire came from?

[Ruckus]

alot of what you said and what is presented has a strong arguement but there are still many discrepancies in their case.


1 of which is the fact that if a building ( a concrete reinforced steel structure ) was to be partially compromised as indicated, it would not implode upon itself at near freefall speed. It would partially collapse as in the Oklahoma city bombing. And when the siezmograph for each towers collapse never went over 2.3 there is no excuse.  And if you need any basis for that arguement just research japanese skyscrapers which sustain earthquakes twice as intense on a yearly basis and NEVER collapse much less implode upon themselves.

Let me remind you that there have only been 3 concrete reinforced steel structure building collapses in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and they all happened on 9/11/01. And one of them was an innocent bystander that happened to contain alot of criminal papers or large corporations BTW that took TRILLIONS of dollars from the military. A fact Rumsfeld himself anounced on sept 10th 2001. But no one remembers that do they ?  2.3 trillion to be exact : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

OMFG now thats a coincidence     

The Murrah building didn't have 2 110 story buildings collapse beside it, shedding debris on ot it. Why do people dismiss that? Where did you think the fire came from?

thats funny, none of the other buildings surrounding those two even flinched. Not even FLINCHED

one of which was the Verizon building directly across the street from it. Which sustained window damage and thats all.

[Zeradul]

So, Ruck, with the Conspiracy plot in place, the government does this near-flawless "inside job" and covers is up so perfectly that it takes more than a year to even get the real fringe people thinking that maybe it was possible, and then on top of all that flawless-ness orchestration, such as:

No pilots who were consulted on some specifics of the 'terrorist act'  No military personnel who were told to not scramble, or told to intentionally sabotage planes for the possible attempts to scramble, no one anywhere in the FBI building noticing thousands of tons of bombs being installed in the building, none of those bombs going off in the intense fires.  Essentially I'm talking about all the people that would have to have been involved in a plot to accomplish it, none of them coming forward with evidence, and yet, you would have us believe that Rumsfeld BOTCHES the whole plan by dispensing some sort of evidence the day before the plot is to occur.

[wargasm]

thats funny, none of the other buildings surrounding those two even flinched. Not even FLINCHED

that's funny, none of the other building surrounding those two were hit by huge fucking commercial airliners heavily laden with fuel.  Not even HIT

AND OMFG YUO FORGOT TEH WTC 7!!!



seriously guy, did you ever even see the WTC in person?

[Ruckus]

no no no no


you guys get me all wrong

for one thing

alot of the other specualtion is really far fetched

What I believe is ...

it was an inside job by means that the plot was figured out a long time before it happened , I mean pakistan of all people told us of the possibility of hijackings and buildings being hit as well as the MI6 and Mossad. Not to mention the memo that then security advisor NEOCONdi rice had handed to her that stated the threat was real and probable.

It Was alowed to happen and enhanced, ie: charges placed in wtc 7. As for towers 1 and 2, well Zera your video cited firefighter eyewitness acounts;  In towers 1 and 2 many firefighters reported explosions ... MANY of them. Who do you believe and what to believe is tough to decide. I was also advised awhile back that eyewitness acounts can be decieving.

 What about the 2.3 trillion bucks ? Whats to make of that ? 

Whats to make of the Norad standdown ?

What really Irks me is that this gave the neo cons a blank check for world domination, in the name of TERROR. And we see how thats going now dont we .... anytime something challenging comes up, RAISE THE ALERT !! NEW PLOT DISCOVERED. Its all a fucking mindgame. Manipulation at its purest form

and yes war I have been there . My pop lives in highlands NJ.

In fact I was in awe when I visited him every time at how on a clear day you could see Manhattan, and how the Towers stood out alone in all their majesty.

[wargasm]

you guys get me all wrong

sadly we've got you pegged correctly.

alot of the other specualtion is really far fetched

unlike your theories?  niagara please.

What I believe is ...

it was an inside job by means that the plot was figured out a long time before it happened , I mean pakistan of all people told us of the possibility of hijackings and buildings being hit as well as the MI6 and Mossad.

you mean like when 99% of all people who've played Microsoft Flight Simulator would purposely crash into the WTC and other similar structures?  when I worked at the WTC many was the morning I'd look up and imagine seeing giant bullseyes transposed on the towers.

In towers 1 and 2 many firefighters reported explosions ... MANY of them.

you don't say?  MANY explosions occuring in two 100+ story skyscrapers that had been hit by jumbo jets and set ablaze on MANY levels.

I was also advised awhile back that eyewitness acounts can be decieving.

unless of course they support your crackpot armchair engineer theories, right?

What about the 2.3 trillion bucks ? Whats to make of that ?

what about it?  and no, don't post some random fuckwit links to conspiracy theorist blogs.  tell us in your own words with information from credible sources you've researched.

Whats to make of the Norad standdown ?

see challenge above.

and yes war I have been there . My pop lives in highlands NJ.

In fact I was in awe when I visited him every time at how on a clear day you could see Manhattan, and how the Towers stood out alone in all their majesty.

Highlands, NJ US to New York, NY US
Total Est. Time:  1 hour, 5 minutes
Total Est. Distance: 49.28 miles

Sit the fuck down, put your hand down, and don't post again until called on.  I'm talking about seeing it up close and personal and you well know it.  I worked on the 34th floor of WTC 2 for the Voter News Service.  I used to rollerblade or skateboard at the WTC in the wee hours when no one else was there.  I'd stand between the ribs of the towers to shield myself from biting winter winds to have a smoke.  I knew the WTC on an intimate level you could never know it on.  Every "valuable" tidbit of information you've "gleaned" that has done nothing but led you to swallow whatever story you've been choking on has been filtered at best through so many channels you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of ariving at anything even remotely approaching logic, much less firsthand data.

One thing I've got to know though... what nutjob cause did you have to live for before 9/11?

[Ruckus]

wow you are an angry young man, or woman, who knows at this point.

Since narcisistic hyperbole is your mantra I'll oblige you.

looks like you've 'mind  blocked' the memo Neocondi rice was handed and LIED to the senate committee about. You know, the one that said "BUILDINGS and JETLINERS ".  And the fact that all the before mentioned secret service's screamed at us that it was 'imminent' months before it happened. That goes far beyond the wild speculation of flight simulator and imaginary bullseyes from cold, disgruntled mailroom 'queens'.


The explosion thing remains to be seen. Its hard for me to believe but I have taken your point under consideration for a long time. Im still torn as far as towers 1 and 2 on wether demolition brought it down. The firefighter eyewitness acounts of explosions in the basement well after the impacts doesnt bode well for singular 'jet impact failure' conclusion.  Im really not convinced at all about wtc 7 at this point.

on eyewitness accounts, I was refering to a discussion myself Rue, and Kai had pertaining that exacty point, last year. 

  I know NOTHING more than basic physics so I can only go by what seems more rational not by what might or might not be fact. Theres alot more angles to this than basic it got hit and fell and I dont know if youve realized there are ALOT of engineers and scientists on the opposite side of the arguement than yourself. And where they might be polarized on the cause they are ALL united for one thing .... "why did the government take the steel, remove it, and ship it to asia immediately"

Neither the norad or cash unaccounted for can be found aside from blogs and conspiracy sites. It was swept away, removed from our conscience. Our sympathy and shock erased it.  Mission Accomplished.

Btw , Ive been in the lobby of both towers like a good little tourist back in Aug of '00.

 Damn little lady   !!  You got your "im better than you cause I rode a skateboard or something in manhattan and worked as a janitor on the 34th  floor" panties in the biggest  fucking wad.  Jumping to conclusions is your forte evidently and angst is your modus operandi.



My nutjob cause to live for was freedom. What was yours ?

[wargasm]

wow you are an angry young man, or woman, who knows at this point.

good one juniour.  what's next, "your mom" comebacks?

looks like you've 'mind  blocked' the memo Neocondi rice was handed and LIED to the senate committee about.

kinda like you mindblock every question posed to you?  no wonder no one has ever taken you seriously.

I know NOTHING more than basic physics so I can only go by what seems more rational not by what might or might not be fact.

yet strangely you have trouble digesting what might or might not be fact from only one side of the equation.

And where they might be polarized on the cause they are ALL united for one thing .... "why did the government take the steel, remove it, and ship it to asia immediately"

how about you start answering some questions before pulling more out of your ass.  I bet you like to get stoned and find "faces" and "words" in wood paneling.

Damn little lady   !!  You got your "im better than you cause I rode a skateboard or something in manhattan and worked as a janitor on the 34th  floor" panties in the biggest  fucking wad.  Jumping to conclusions is your forte evidently and angst is your modus operandi.

you might want to get your little inferiority compex checked out before it manifests itself in yet another painful rash of pussy blisters.  how you get "I'm better than you are" from, "I'm more familiar with the area in question than you are" is beyond me.  extrapolating that I'm a "janitor" from "worked for the Voter News Service" was quite masterful and gives us all deeper insight as to how your special brand of logic works.  why you're a regular Sherlock Fucking Holmes.

and seriously guy, don't throw words like "angst" out there when you quite obviously don't know what the fuck they mean.

[Ruckus]

war war war war

I love how when I allude to your narcisistic, condescending remarks you try and spin it.

now I feel dirty having thrown my own red herring attacks into it, so I will digress.

Maybe you do know more about the subject than I do, but as far as answering the questions neither one of us can. We can only speculate on the advice given by others who are more specialized in the fields.

But if, and I dont think you do, you believe that this government isnt 'capable' of this type of conspiracy... that my friend is naive. And if you think that it possibly couldnt I would like to hear why.

[wargasm]

I love how when I allude to your narcisistic, condescending remarks you try and spin it.

"condescending"?  sure.  "narcissistic"?  once again, don't throw around words you obviously don't know how to use properly.  it really makes you look simple.

but as far as answering the questions neither one of us can.

yet you never hesitate make definitive claims despite not having answers (with equally condescending tenor).

But if, and I dont think you do, you believe that this government isnt 'capable' of this type of conspiracy... that my friend is naive. And if you think that it possibly couldnt I would like to hear why.

have you ever worked for the government in any capacity?  military, administrative, postal, law enforcement, volunteer?  anything?  you give the United States government far more credit than it deserves.

if 9/11 were a government conspiracy it would take the marshaling of powers and resources far beyond the scope of what our government is capable of on it's own.

I understand that it's easier and more comfortable for you if you can put a simple face or label on "the enemy", however limited that may leave your ability to make informed judgements. 

I'm going to leave you with one last tidbit to try to digest.  I keep hearing about "freedoms being stripped" and "we're headed for another Nazi Germany" and a myriad of other doomsaying fearmongering mantras being thrown about.  Tyranny and dictatorships excel only at the cost of the knowledge of the common man.  Burn books, jail teachers and scientists, and above all else CONTROL INFORMATION - ALL INFORMATION.

Pretty much all the examples from history that anyone could possibly cite as great tyrannies existed before the dawn of the Information Age.  That's not to say that every government on the planet has entered that age but you should get the point by now.  On top of the introduction of the Internet and the World Wide Web communication technologies have been proliferating at a never before seen rate.  Most of my friends no longer have land-based telephone lines and the few that do, for the most part, use a VOIP service like Vonage.  I see preteens carryig cell phones FFS.

Communication is the key to the spread of information.  It is my belief that no single power will ever again control the flow of information.  The best they could possibly hope for is to muddle good information with disinformation.  In the end, the truth will still be floating out there waiting to be picked like a ripe fruit.

We are headed for a new paradigm on the Internet.  You've probably seen it mentioned as Web 2.0.  What it is exactly no one knows.  It has not become a standard and perhaps it never will.  It is more of an observation of what patterns survived through the dotcom era and where they are currently headed.  One of the best definitions I've heard, and quite probably the simplest, is "an architecture of participation".  This participation is the driving force behind sites like myspace, flickr, and del.icio.us. technologies like blogging, mashups, and RSS syndication make the participation possible on entirely new levels.  I believe that this new paradigm will bring about a heretofore unseen level of information sharing.  I simply do not believe the doomsayers "prophecies" of police states can exist in the atmosphere of uncontrolled information.

[Ruckus]

I love how when I allude to your narcisistic, condescending remarks you try and spin it.

"condescending"?  sure.  "narcissistic"?  once again, don't throw around words you obviously don't know how to use properly.  it really makes you look simple.

but as far as answering the questions neither one of us can.

yet you never hesitate make definitive claims despite not having answers (with equally condescending tenor).

But if, and I dont think you do, you believe that this government isnt 'capable' of this type of conspiracy... that my friend is naive. And if you think that it possibly couldnt I would like to hear why.

have you ever worked for the government in any capacity?  military, administrative, postal, law enforcement, volunteer?  anything?  you give the United States government far more credit than it deserves.

if 9/11 were a government conspiracy it would take the marshaling of powers and resources far beyond the scope of what our government is capable of on it's own.

Yes I have. I was in the Navy from '91 to '99. I did 3 tours to the Gulf on 2 different aircraft carriers. CVN-73 and CVN-69

I fully understand your point and have to disagree. I dont think It was spread amongst as many people as you feel it would have to ,to be accomplished. Hell, GW his bitch ass self, prolly didnt have a thing to do with it.  I believe, there is a controlling interest here beyond these puppets.

Maybe my context has been misconstrued and my spelling is terrible.


even though pluto is no longer a planet. The word still helps spell out what I believe our nation today really is.

A Plutocracy

[wargasm]

Yes I have. I was in the Navy from '91 to '99. I did 3 tours to the Gulf on 2 different aircraft carriers. CVN-73 and CVN-69

then you should be painfully aware of how inefficient our government really is.

I fully understand your point and have to disagree. I dont think It was spread amongst as many people as you feel it would have to ,to be accomplished.

you apparently don't understand me because I said nothing about numbers of people.  I said power and resources.

Hell, GW his bitch ass self, prolly didnt have a thing to do with it.  I believe, there is a controlling interest here beyond these puppets.

that's all well and good but you have been saying since the beginning "this government".  your challenge to me was "believe that this government isnt 'capable' of this type of conspiracy".   Not a shadow government, no the Illuminati, not Xenu, THIS government.