Deep Thoughts, With DD: Theseus' Ship

[rue]

 Next I'd like to hear opinions on Theseus' Paradox.

  Theseus is a hero of Athens in Greek mythology.  He had a variety of adventures in his lifetime, many of which had him sailing to and from his destinations.  He liked a certain ship and he used the same one through all of his adventures.  The Athenians preserved his ship out of respect, however; in order to keep it seaworthy over the years, all of the wooden planks of the hull, the oars and the sail needed to be replaced over and over.

  This story lead philosophers of the time to wonder:  should the ship still be considered Theseus' ship?  They're not asking if it's his property still, Theseus, if he existed, was long dead, but is it the same ship that Theseus sailed the seas on?  If you took the old parts that were scrapped, and put them together in the same form of Theseus' ship, would that be the same ship that Theseus sailed on?

[QB3RT]

i think the mexicans built it

[wargasm]

well that would all depend on whether or not you believed in the spirit of a thing, wouldn't it?

from a legal standpoint, having a heart transplant does not change one's identity, so it's safe to say the essence of an individual does not reside in the heart.  and if not the heart or the brain, then where?

I'm sure that Theseus had to perform a fair amount of upkeep on his ship to keep it serviceable over the years that he actually used it, so even he wasn't commanding the complete original any longer.  but the question isn't, "is this the same ship?" is it?

the "philosophers" create an artifical paradox where none truly exists.  if they're not asking if the ship is his property but if it is the same ship Theseus sailed upon.  the only true answer, from a completely physical standpoint, would be a simple "no".  the answer changes depending on what direction you look at it from though.  emotionally, it is still his ship to some, not to others.  spiritually it is still his ship. legally, well, legally who the hell knows?  physically, no.  literally, no.  figuratively, yes. and so on and so on.


if worshippers believe in a false god does that make their belief any less?

[Mnementh]

It all depends on whether you put stock in the "symbol" or the "tangible".  The ship as it is now, remains as a symbol of what Theseus accomplished and the adventures he had, even though nearly none of it is as it was when he sailed it.  But as War pointed out, Theseus himself would have had to alter, change, fix his ship over time, so even when he was sailing on it the material that it was made of was in constant change.  So if you believe that the spirit lies in what something represents, then the ship as it is now does indeed embody the spirit of Theseus and could therefore still be called "his" ship.

Yet, if you believe that the spirit lies within the actual tangible materials of a thing, then of course the ship as it is now no longer embodies Theseus as it is no longer made of any of the original material used when the ship was initially created.  As each piece was removed or replaced, a little bit of the true spirit of the ship was taken away and eventually would cease to be Theseus's ship and only be a replica of something long lost.

The question could be asked of a flag.  Does the power and the spirit of a flag diminish simply because the one you're looking at isn't the original?  Or any artifact of significance to anyone, for that matter.  Does the original hold the truth, or does the truth change over time as the item would itself?

[DragonMage]

Our body replaces all of our cells on a regular basis as the old ones die out. Does this mean after each cell rebirth we are a new person? NEIN. As war said, the essence of us doesn't lie in any single particular thing or singular component of the whole.

[Zeradul]

Yep, we've nailed this one, Especially DM.

It continues to be his ship as long as it's still recognizable as his, and as long as the crew knows and understands the legacy, its his until it's destroyed.

[stas]

No. It's my ship now.