Philly stands up against discrimination.

[Zeradul]

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Philadelphia_to_Boy_Scouts_Discriminate_against_1018.html

It's about damn time.  I guess I'm most shocked that Philly of all cities was the first to make this move.  I guess Philly knows unconstitutional when they see it. 

It's important everyone know that the Scouts' current stance against Homosexuality is a complete invention by the Scouts' recent changes in management.

The Boy Scouts have been around for roughly a hundred years, and intentionally avoided the issue of sexuality, religion, and home life as the Scouts felt that those issues are ones better addressed by the family.  Starting in the late 70's however, the Mormons got people into high positions in Scouting, and started changing it to fit their "morality".  They introduced intolerance for homosexuals, as well as atheists, into a system that had always intentionally avoided those issues because it's inappropriate.  Scouting IS all about tolerance and getting along, so these new stances are in direct conflict with the lessons being taught.

Also know that most people in scouts don't agree with those 'official' policies, and so I'd encourage all of you to let your sons be in scouts in it is something that interests them.

[zipfruder]

Philly is just money grubbing. if they really had an issue with the Scouts, they should've just evicted them from the property.

[Zeradul]

It's true the punishment could have been more harsh, but it's a step.  And it's the one that matters.  From a government standpoint, scouts offers a very valuable experience to some of the kids who really need guidance and role models the most, and thus provides a very beneficial civil service.

Requesting fair market rent as opposed to funding it with public tax money is enough of a message.

And Philly is the frontrunner in this, nearly every city in the US is giving free rent/use of facilities/use of parks and equipment/low or no property tax, etc to the Scouts.  They're getting handouts everywhere, including your city, which means you're forced to pay for it.  Philly should be commended for this.

[kai]

Boy Scouts is a religious organization. If you want to apply these rules to them then you open it up for all the other religious organizations. No tax-free status or services for churches that won't have gay or female priests. No tax-free status for mosques that not only won't give females authority but don't give them any say and determine how they dress. This is infringing on religion's rights to live with their morals whatever they are.

[Mnementh]

Actually, Boy Scouts is NOT a religious organization.  Also, the difference here Kai is that Churches don't use government or public owned facilities to hold services...the Boy Scouts often do.  Since churches are privately owned, the government can't charge them rent.

Also, you can't compare the Boy Scouts to churches....two completely different things there, especially since the Boy Scouts, once again, not a religious organization.

[kai]

Seemed pretty religious to me with all the mentions of God and reverence in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. And we met in a church. And me and rue got Catholic scout medals to wear on our dress uniforms.

[Mnementh]

If you remember correctly, there's only one mention of God in any of the oaths or mottos....and that does speak to doing your duty to God, but Baden-Powell's idea of god was that of a higher power, he didn't necessarily mean the Christian God.  He felt that the Scouts should be open to all religions, and that by a study and appreciation of nature we can come to understand the true purpose and meaning of "god".

From Baden-Powell's book:

"Our aim was to improve the standard of our future citizenhood, especially in CHARACTER and HEALTH. One had to think out the main weak points in our national character and make some effort to eradicate these by substituting equivalent virtues, where the ordinary school curriculum was not in a position to supply them. Outdoor activities, handicrafts, and service for others therefore came into the forefront of our programme."

My Boy Scout troop was based in a Japanese Buddhist church...so go figure.

[Zeradul]

Our troop was sponsored by our local VFW chapter, and we held meetings in our local VFW building.  The only thing I recall about scouts that was religious was that they forced us to go to 'chapel' service when we were at scout camp for a whole week.  It was non-denominational of course, mostly just rambling 'spiritual' gobblty gook, with a few basic Disney messages in there about how to be nice to each other, but my friends and I requested to not have to go to it every year, and ever year we were told we had to, because "we don't have anyone to supervise you" for that hour on Sunday mornings.

Also, Scouts added the new merit badge "Family Life" that had never existed before and added it as a mandatory requirement for Eagle Scout right before I had finished my Eagle Scout work, and so last minute I had to do that bullshit badge which is all about religion, and how there is only one acceptable family structure, etc.  That badge goes directly against pre-mormon scouting which says the following in the ScoutMaster Handbook in the mid 70's:

Direct quote from the segment in the book advising scoutmasters on how to deal with these issues:

Rule Number 1: You do not undertake to instruct Scouts, in any formalized manner, in the subject of sex and family life.  The reasons are that it is not construed to be Scouting's proper area, and that you are probably not well qualified to do this.

Yet, in 1997, the douchebag Mormons in charge added a merit badge called "Family Life"  I believe the badge was one third religion, one third appropriate family structure, and one third something else.  Our Scoutmaster was the instructor for this badge (he signed up because it was new and we all needed it) and then let us skip the portion of the badge that was about religion.

Other than those two things, there wasn't anything religious in my scouting experience.  Clearly though, if your troop is sponsored by a church, then you are likely to get a flavor of scouting that speaks favorably of religion and even gives out 'Catholic Scout Medals' like Kai mentioned, which is something I've never heard of.  Everyone who volunteers for scouts is going to add their own viewpoints to the program, heck they're volunteering for the primary purpose of supporting something they believe in, so its not surprising that religion will get mixed in a little bit.  By the same token, the people who aren't comfortable pushing religion on little kids are out there as Scoutmasters as well, and they are by far the majority.

It sickens me that Boy Scouts gets all this negative press when its just a few select douchebags at the top are steering scouts the wrong way.  And for their own benefit too.  That's the worst part.  They're manipulating it to keep people coming to church, and what better way than to force it onto kids who aren't yet capable or prepared to think critically about it for themselves.

[rue]

Kai says our boy scout troop was sponsored by a church and instantly you guys think they brainwashed us.

Actually the only contact they had with us was when they made a request for volunteers every year on Scout day to present The Colors at a Sunday service.  Our sponsor church was Methodist.  Kai and I were Catholic.  Our medals were an independent and entirely voluntary medal program sponsored by the Catholics in Scouting program.

As for religion in scouting, this article and decision do not concern such a broad scope---but you can stretch it to if you're looking to be a victim.  The government simply cannot sponsor an organization which discriminates less it appear to favor said discrimination.

There was a similar case here in St. Louis when a local branch of white supremacists bought ad space on city metro link trains.  The city government dropped the ads shortly afterwards since the group was found to be discriminatory. 

[Ruckus]

On the tax exempt tangent :

we could easily pay for 3 more wars if we taxed churches


I say TAX EM ALL !!




We'll call it the HR 1956 " Churches must pay taxes for believing in the boogy man act of 2007 "

[Zeradul]

I did mean to insinuate that you and Kai were brainwashed by Scouts.  In your case your parents did that!     Which is fine that is their right to teach you about the world as they see it, and if you guys benefit from religion in your lives, then that is great.  I've always said that religion does play many positive roles in the world and peoples lives.  But when a religious group moves in on a children's organization like this, it really irks me.

To understand the dislike that the Mormons in high places in Scouting brings me, imagine if the KKK sponsored the national Little League organization and eventually changed the policies of Little League to not allow all the groups the KKK hates, and in addition the KKK was allowed to come to Little League practice and speak positively about themselves.  The same type of coup has taken place in Scouting.

My thinking is, can't they just leave it alone?  Can't things like Little League and Scouting and other extracurricular activities just be free of all these controversial topics?  When I had my Computer Camp job this summer, I overheard a surprising amount of discussion about how religion is silly, and while I was overjoyed to see that, I never endorsed, or giggled, or agreed with any of those comments, because I felt that would be a violation of my role as an Instructor.  And clearly, not every kid was joking about Jesus, so it was not my place to chime in.

As for religion in scouting, this article and decision do not concern such a broad scope---but you can stretch it to if you're looking to be a victim.

Yes, but when the views of scouting in question (that homosexuality is immoral) is an invention of religion, then the religion discussion directly follows.

[rue]

 

I did mean to insinuate that you and Kai were brainwashed by Scouts.  In your case your parents did that!     Which is fine that is their right to teach you about the world as they see it, and if you guys benefit from religion in your lives, then that is great.  I've always said that religion does play many positive roles in the world and peoples lives.  But when a religious group moves in on a children's organization like this, it really irks me.

Everyone interested in these Serious Business threads please note the above.  This is why I put Zera on ignore the first time.  This is why I'll do it against for the next few months; only taking it off to check if his attitude towards people who disagree with him has changed.  As we can see, people who offer a dissenting opinion are brainwashed.  They do not think for themselves, they only repeat what other delusional people have led them to believe.  It is a stance which is impossible to argue against, because any counter offered to his beliefs can equally originate from the same corrupted source.   A wall impossible to breach. 

Would it interest you, Zeradul,  that I'm supporting Rudy Giuliani this year despite his open stance on abortion?  Did that come from my parents?  Would you like to me to talk at length (again, circa the pow forums during the "cyclo gay marriage debate") about how I support gay marriage until its proven (if it is at all, which I doubt) that same sex couples raise maladjusted children?  Did my parents brainwash that into me? 

I'm sorry for the rhetorical questions.  But they're nothing new.  I routinely talk to the wall when I address you.

[Zeradul]

You just created that fantasy.  Nearly 100% of religious views are inherited from one's parents.  Most religions specifically target those who would question it's validity by labeling them heretical.  But I could be wrong in your case, maybe you looked into the thousands of religions and chose one on your own?  That's all I was saying.  With that said, my comment was obviously a joke that your parents brainwashed you.  That is a parent's role, to teach children about the world as they see it.

You are getting quite paranoid, as you read WAY too much into what I said.  I didn't say any of this:

As we can see, people who offer a dissenting opinion are brainwashed.

You brought up the idea you had been brainwashed.  I made a joke about it.  Duh.

They do not think for themselves, they only repeat what other delusional people have led them to believe.

Didn't say that either.

Would it interest you, Zeradul,  that I'm supporting Rudy Giuliani this year despite his open stance on abortion?  Did that come from my parents?  Would you like to me to talk at length (again, circa the pow forums during the "cyclo gay marriage debate") about how I support gay marriage until its proven (if it is at all, which I doubt) that same sex couples raise maladjusted children?  Did my parents brainwash that into me?

I did not suggest that every view of yours has been inherited, nor that you do not think for yourself.  The only thing even close to that idea is that kids are more vulnerable to things like Scout taught intolerance of homosexuality.  And kids are..... are you in disagreement there?

And I'm not sure why I warrant this attitude from you DD, I mean, Ruck just called your God the "Boogy Man" and that didn't even warrant a response.  Maybe it's just a defense mechanism to avoid the issue.  Block me if you must.  Until you care to respond with something other than slander it's probably for the best.

[Zeradul]

It is a stance which is impossible to argue against, because any counter offered to his beliefs can equally originate from the same corrupted source.   A wall impossible to breach.

This however is something relevant.  If I ever attempt to prove or disprove something merely in this way, you should call me on it.  You actually have a good point here.  I will say that I do believe that most of my judgments on issues are based on many, many different pieces of evidence, not just on the belief that "well religion says that, so the source is not valid"

So I make that challenge.  If I ever do that, call me on it point for point, because you are right, it is possible I may have some beliefs that are built on unrelated pieces of evidence.  Or even evidence that merely come from the "same corrupted source".  Now I don't expect many beliefs will be this way, but I would be fascinated to find some that are.

That is a fascinating idea that I don't think I have done, but it is possible, and I can see how it would be easy to have made that logical mistake in reasoning.

Edit:  One more followup to this....  Let me also say that while I am very interested in this idea, it does seem to parallel religious thinking, in that 'Faith' a heralded virtue of religion, is something that literally IS impossible to argue against.  I mean, if I had absolute Faith that the Moon was made of cheese, it would be impossible to prove to me that it isn't.  Even taking me there I could easily rationalize that what I'm witnessing is just a elaborate trick.  Or that maybe the Moon IS made of cheese, the cheese just starts 100 feet deep. Etc, etc.

So I don't think many of my beliefs are based on that type of faith like logic, but it is possible.  We humans have limited scope and it is human nature to generalize and so I am interested to the possibility that I have generalized on some topic and come to a false conclusion.  This is why it is so easy for me to discuss these topics because there is always the possibility I'm wrong.  I'm always interested in those topics I'm wrong about because that is a margin for growth.

[kai]