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stas
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« on: February 20, 2008, 02:41:26 pm » |
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So are we going to talk about it or what?
I call it bs and its only the beginning.
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Commie don't play dat!
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Mnementh
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 06:45:57 pm » |
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I'm only somewhat familiar with the whole thing, but I don't see why it would be "bs" for Kosovo to declare independence from Serbia. They are ethnically different, right? Not to mention Muslim, which was the basis for the Serbian atrocities to begin with. So please tell me why you think it is bs instead of just throwing that out there, then at least we have a foundation for discussion.
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stas
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 10:19:28 pm » |
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Its bs because without any real reason Albanian population of Serbia decided that they have a right to divide the country that they happen to be living in according to the way they feel. Kosovo has always, or at least for significant amount of time, has been Serbian territory. It is only within the last 50 years that Albanians came to dominate that region. Now all of a sudden they can declare the independence? Tell me specifically what gives them the right to do so? There has never been a president like that in history since 1648 and especially since 1945. If anything, they lost the war for their independence (i.e. how all territorial questions used to be settled since the beginning). Does the notion of nation state mean anything anymore??? It’s a quiet serious issue. It is definitely a precedent in the international relations no matter what anyone says. Do you have any idea what this can lead to?? Think about demographic population in USA and where it’s going. Ps: I only said bs to get you guys started  |
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Commie don't play dat!
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dusty
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 11:14:58 pm » |
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Many people try to equate this to a scenario where .. the United States has immigrants coming in from Mexico and then those immigrants deciding to make some territory in the south west independent from the United States.
I don't know enough about that region of the world to say whether or not that is accurate. /shrug
Lets just hope we don't get another genocide.
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zipfruder
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2008, 04:57:57 am » |
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Want a justification? Israel is all you need.
Darfur has a good claim to go solo too.
Too bad milosovic is dead. He's the one to blame for the mess.
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DragonMage
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 04:10:50 am » |
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Many people try to equate this to a scenario where .. the United States has immigrants coming in from Mexico and then those immigrants deciding to make some territory in the south west independent from the United States.
I don't know enough about that region of the world to say whether or not that is accurate. /shrug
Lets just hope we don't get another genocide.
Could you imagine them pulling something like that? The US would steamroll that section of the country and start over. |
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stas
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 05:48:59 pm » |
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Israel does not recognize K Want a justification? Israel is all you need.
Darfur has a good claim to go solo too.
Too bad milosovic is dead. He's the one to blame for the mess.
Israel does not recognize Kosovo. Why? I assume you are joking about milosevic.... |
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zipfruder
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2008, 03:48:41 am » |
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no im not. Only an idiot would conduct a war with international eyes already on him for the violence that came from the collapse of Yugoslavia. He didn't have to go about using serb nationalism to disenfranchise the rest of Yugoslavia to create is own personal fiefdom
He never read up on his history: Israel exists out of western guilt, so does an independent Kosovo.
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Ruckus
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2008, 03:51:43 am » |
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hey hey hey !!
I got my NATO MEDAL for turning circles of the coast of that shithole back in '98, 1998 , you know back when Q2JB was the rage !!
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kai
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 06:33:07 pm » |
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And look how it ended up! Sounds like someone needs to give the medal back!  |
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Ruckus
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2008, 01:14:24 pm » |
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And look how it ended up! Sounds like someone needs to give the medal back! hahaha no way !! Q2jb ended up fine !!  and where is your brother at btw ......... IRC has been an Xterm-fest since he left  |
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stas
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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2008, 04:28:40 pm » |
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no im not. Only an idiot would conduct a war with international eyes already on him for the violence that came from the collapse of Yugoslavia. He didn't have to go about using serb nationalism to disenfranchise the rest of Yugoslavia to create is own personal fiefdom
He never read up on his history: Israel exists out of western guilt, so does an independent Kosovo.
I'm not really sure how Kosovo comes to exist out of Western guilt??? I don't remember NATO bombing Kosovo in 98. I also do not remember hearing anything that western powers did to Albanians in Kosovo of which they should be guilty right now. Let me know if I’m forgetting anything. What i do remember though is how NATO was bombing Serbia non-stop for 3 months. If you make that analogy, Western powers are guilty before Serbia and not Kosovo (Albanians). Half of Serbia is still in ruins after 98. I don’t see NATO countries rebuilding it. What has Milosevic done that was not his direct responsibility? I’m talking specifically about his ultimate responsibilities before his country. Was he not supposed to preserve unity of Serbia in the face of country being broken down into pieces? I think he should have. He might not have always been fair and just but results are what matters in the end and he did get the results. And what does international community have to do with this??? Serbia did not start any wars with any sovereign nations. It should not have been anyone business of what was happening in Kosovo apart from people directly involved in it. If you do not like what you see, go and argue about it in UN. That’s why it exists. Or is UN no longer relevant? Personally I don’t feel sorry for Serbia in this case. They ultimately got what they deserve. Any country that hands over their leaders to a tribunal the way Serbs done with Milosevic and their generals has no moral ground to exist. Let this be a lesson to them. Ruck, in the name of Democracy give back your NATO medal. |
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Mnementh
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2008, 08:32:57 pm » |
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So it is okay for Milosevic to have committed genocide in order "to preserve [the] unity of Serbia in the face of country being broken down into pieces"? Are you fucking serious?
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stas
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 08:43:54 pm » |
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I said i do not support how he did it.
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Mnementh
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2008, 09:19:07 pm » |
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I said i do not support how he did it.
But you said that you think he should have done it!!! What's the difference? Was he not supposed to preserve unity of Serbia in the face of country being broken down into pieces? I think he should have. He might not have always been fair and just but results are what matters in the end and he did get the results. So basically, by that logic, you're saying the ends justify the means. That if, in order to keep his country unified, he had to commit genocide you think he should have. I'm honestly appalled. |
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stas
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2008, 09:51:19 pm » |
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Ends justify the means, yes. If you b I said i do not support how he did it.
But you said that you think he should have done it!!! What's the difference? Again, here is what i'm saying. Milosevic's responsibility was to preserve independence and unity of his country. Was it not? He did it by means that were not right and which i do not support. But he had to do something! Was he supposed to lay down and do nothing? Was he not supposed to preserve unity of Serbia in the face of country being broken down into pieces? I think he should have. He might not have always been fair and just but results are what matters in the end and he did get the results. So basically, by that logic, you're saying the ends justify the means. That if, in order to keep his country unified, he had to commit genocide you think he should have. I'm honestly appalled. No, i do not say or think that he should have committed any genocides. That's what he chose to do and that was something he had to live with. Yes, i generally believe that ends justify the means as long as they are just. If it crosses the line, then there are ways to deal with it. Milosevic was rightfully tried for the crimes against humanity although for some reason not convicted after years of trials?? That is all together a different issue to discuss however. Accounting for all crimes that Milosevic committed out his own personal desire, does that make it right stripping Kosovo away from Serbia? Who decides that it is and under what authority? These are the questions i'm asking. edit: typos |
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« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 09:56:09 pm by stas »
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dusty
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2008, 10:04:23 pm » |
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You have the audacity to comment on the state of Serbia as it exists today and suggest that it is warranted because they turned in a mass murderer and his accomplices? Serbia has no "moral ground" to exist because it handed over a criminal and his henchmen? You are out of your fucking mind.
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stas
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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2008, 10:15:05 pm » |
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You have the audacity to comment on the state of Serbia as it exists today and suggest that it is warranted because they turned in a mass murderer and his accomplices? Serbia has no "moral ground" to exist because it handed over a criminal and his henchmen? You are out of your fucking mind.
Can we stay away from personal insults? From Stand point of Serbia, by turning over Milosevic they showed that they are not in charge of their country. What reason does that country now have to exist? Analogy, what would you think about American government should it decide to turn over Bush to a trial against humanity after he leaves the office? I'm sure more than a few people would like to see that. |
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Mnementh
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2008, 10:29:36 pm » |
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If Bush has committed such crimes, then he should be handed over. That doesn't mean we'd be weak, it means we'd be doing our duty.
Giving up a criminal, whether it be a president or a common thug, is our duty to humanity. If they had harbored such a man, THEN they would have complicit in the crimes in which he committed. By handing them over, they were showing that they are ready to move forward, away from the hatred and divisiveness that he represented...that they were truly ready to BE a country, not the other way around.
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dusty
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2008, 10:31:43 pm » |
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Everything you have said up to this point has been utterly insulting.
Had George W. Bush committed war-crimes it would be the morally responsible thing to do for the government of the United States to turn him over to a tribunal for those crimes.
And what are you even blabbering about? "Not in charge of their country" Are you suggesting that the country's "grounds to exist" just vanishes when its head of state commits some wrong doing? I suppose the proper thing to do would have been to simply ignore it, since we all know that the end justifies the means!
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stas
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2008, 10:34:52 pm » |
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If Bush has committed such crimes, then he should be handed over. That doesn't mean we'd be weak, it means we'd be doing our duty.
Giving up a criminal, whether it be a president or a common thug, is our duty to humanity. If they had harbored such a man, THEN they would have complicit in the crimes in which he committed. By handing them over, they were showing that they are ready to move forward, away from the hatred and divisiveness that he represented...that they were truly ready to BE a country, not the other way around.
Ok fine. And in addition to that to say that they were really sorry, Serbian people should give away 1/3 of their country as a price of electing a criminal? |
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stas
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2008, 10:42:45 pm » |
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Everything you have said up to this point has been utterly insulting.
Had George W. Bush committed war-crimes it would be the morally responsible thing to do for the government of the United States to turn him over to a tribunal for those crimes.
Next time Bush is called to be tried in such court, i would like to hear what you have to say. And what are you even blabbering about? "Not in charge of their country" Are you suggesting that the country's "grounds to exist" just vanishes when its head of state commits some wrong doing? I suppose the proper thing to do would have been to simply ignore it, since we all know that the end justifies the means!
The ground to exist does not vanish, but it does not get stronger. Milosevic should have been tried in Serbia by Serbians and Albanians. Or are they not capable of doing that? In that case should someone from outside come in to set it all right? |
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stas
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2008, 03:16:23 pm » |
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Is this discussion now over?
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Mnementh
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2008, 03:47:52 pm » |
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I think we were waiting for your reply to Kai pointing out that the Serbian government did attempt to try Milosevic but, due to lack of hard evidence, turned him over to The Hague have him tried on war crimes there.
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stas
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2008, 03:54:42 pm » |
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I have nothing to say to his post. To me it shows exactly what i was saying all along. It evens shows how much the government got paid to turn over Milosevic. But i'm not interested in Milosevic at all. What i'm interested are the questions i posted above.
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Commie don't play dat!
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Mnementh
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2008, 05:33:33 pm » |
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lol "got paid"??
It's funny that, on the one hand, you seem to applaud and excuse Milosevic's crimes against humanity because he was only trying to tend to "his ultimate responsibilities to his country", but when Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic hands over Milosevic in order to ensure his country has over a billion dollars to help rebuild you condemn him. Brilliant.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 05:36:23 pm by Mnementh »
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stas
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2008, 08:34:55 pm » |
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lol "got paid"??
It's funny that, on the one hand, you seem to applaud and excuse Milosevic's crimes against humanity because he was only trying to tend to "his ultimate responsibilities to his country", but when Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic hands over Milosevic in order to ensure his country has over a billion dollars to help rebuild you condemn him. Brilliant.
The difference is WHO carries out the verdict. Is that hard to see?  Also, why does Serbia need money to rebuild the country? Serbians were not dropping bombs on Belgrade for three months to then ask for money to rebuild it. |
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Mnementh
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2008, 08:40:43 pm » |
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You just answered your own question...but I guess that's too hard to see.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 08:42:25 pm by Mnementh »
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stas
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2008, 08:43:01 pm » |
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Care to explain to me what i said?
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