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stas
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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2008, 08:49:20 pm »

I'm not going to do a flame war. I promise.

But i really don't see your logic to this. If you agree to what i said in my earlier reply to you, please tell me how my own reply answers my own question. I don't think it does.
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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2008, 08:53:59 pm »

Sorry I keep deleting my posts, stas. 

Your questions don't make any sense to me, so I'm going to stop trying to address them, because my responses seem to make no sense to you.
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stas
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« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2008, 09:06:52 pm »

Ok fine, lets stop discussing Milosevic.

My original question. Who, and under what authority, has a right to intervene in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country that has not committed any acts of aggression against any other sovereign nation states?
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Mnementh
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« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2008, 10:02:11 pm »

Do you support the war in Iraq?

What about the the UN peace-keepers in Sudan?

The economic sanctions against South Africa in the late 80s?
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stas
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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2008, 10:26:56 pm »

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Do you support the war in Iraq?

Short answer No. I can elaborate in more detail if needed in a different thread (discussion).

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What about the the UN peace-keepers in Sudan?

Yes.

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The economic sanctions against South Africa in the late 80s?

I'm not familiar with the sanctions in detail and therefore can not answer.
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Mnementh
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2008, 10:37:25 pm »

All of those are examples of where outside nations intervened in another nation's internal affairs for a considered greater good.  Be it to stop genocide, to keep a country from developing technology that can allow it to do considerable harm, or to try to end the racist, brutal, colonial rule of an extreme minority...all examples of situations where a nation's sovereignty did not stop the larger, global community from acting against atrocities.  Sovereign rights do not protect a nation from killing its own people...that, I'm afraid, is a no-brainer.
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stas
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2008, 10:39:30 pm »

I can't wait to get home and reply! Cheesy

Gimme 1 hour.
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stas
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2008, 11:34:02 pm »

Before we continue, could you answer your own questions. Do you support the war in Iraq, UN forces in Sudan and sanctions against South Africa.

Also, after you answer about Iraq, can we agree not to bring it up in this thread again. We can discuss it in a different thread if needed.
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2008, 12:49:18 am »

No, I will not answer those questions, as my answers are completely irrelevant to the point I am making and will only serve to allow you to change subjects once again.  They were posed to you in order to prove a point, and by your lack of direct response to what I said in my last post, they apparently did. 

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stas
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2008, 12:52:08 am »

I WILL reply to your post, i promise. I even know what to say already!

I want to see simeple Yes/No replies to your question so i don't have to read your mind.
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2008, 01:01:40 am »

Once again, my responses to those questions bear no relevance to the discussion at hand.  They were merely tools used to make a point, which was made.  So go ahead and make your post...I simply cannot wait.   cheesy
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stas
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2008, 02:29:41 am »

So according to what you said, it is justified to invade a sovereign country for the collective good of the global community. For the most part I agree with that. Furthermore I will add that we even have an organization to determine when such action in the name of collective good is justified and should be taken. I believe it is called United Nations. Agree?

I’m sure you know that for UN to take any collective action, majority of the countries should agree to it. For the most serious issues there is security council. Now, we will NOT debate whether the structure and current representation of the UN are fair. By doing so that will not get us anywhere. Let’s accept it as is.

Given that I honestly can not see how any one nation, or groups of nations for that matter, that play significant role in the UN can go against the very basic principles that they stand for by being UN members. No matter how bad and unjust any nation-state is behaving within its national borders, any act of military aggression against it requires a collective agreement. Without such an agreement military action is unfortunately unjustified by all accords of international relations. I hope you agree with me on this. At this point please do not say that certain nations in UN are better qualified than others in determining when that line is crossed and therefore have a right and obligation to correct what they see is wrong. I simply can not accept it and hope you do not either.

Since the United Nations does not recognize Kosovo as an independent nation and still sees it as a part of Serbia, Kosovo’s independence and right to be considered as an independent player in global community is non-existent. It is still a part of Serbia irrespective of what some people want to have. As a result any unilateral recognition of Kosovo by any nation big or small is baseless. Period.

What is real however is the legal outcome of this. By recognizing Kosovo as an independent nation, it gives a right virtually to any group of people to claim independence without regard for consequences as long as there is one nation out there that supports them. Therefore what just happened in Kosovo is likely to continue. There are many different people in the world that have much more rights than Albanians in Kosovo to have their own countries. My forecast is that now we are going to see more local conflicts as a result of all this.

Does this mean now that anyone can simply do anything in the sphere of international relation? 

Why is it that before the Iraq war United States tried hard to make its case in the UN? They did not do it for nothing. They needed support of the global community to justify the military action. Same was in Kosovo in 1998. In both cases it was denied and look what happened.  

How long is this going to continue? If UN is no longer relevant, let’s just get away with it completely and go back to anarchy. . The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Fair?


Once again, my responses to those questions bear no relevance to the discussion at hand.  They were merely tools used to make a point, which was made.  So go ahead and make your post...I simply cannot wait.   cheesy

I agree your questions are not relevant. Yet you asked them of me and i answered. When i asked you to do the same, you resort to personal judgment about me. It took 40 posts to get a direct reply to my original question. Who is changing subjects??

edit: added one more line.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 02:34:42 am by stas » Logged

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Mnementh
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2008, 04:24:35 am »

Ok, I'm going to keep this short because you're all over the place here and not making very much sense.

I completely disagree that the UN is the only body that has the right to recognize another nation's independence...I mean, that goes against everything that being an independent nation means!! 

Also, I did NOT say that my questions were irrelevant, I said me answering them were irrelevant because they were meant for you, not me.  Let me explain, you asked the following question: "Who, and under what authority, has a right to intervene in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country that has not committed any acts of aggression against any other sovereign nation states?"  So I offered some situations where either the UN intervened or independent countries intervened, to see if you thought those were acceptable examples of just intervention.  YOUR answers to the questions answered the question YOU posed...I thought that was obvious.
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stas
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2008, 04:45:21 am »

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Ok, I'm going to keep this short because you're all over the place here and not making very much sense.

Where am i not making sense? Example please. I will explain myself for more clarity.

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I completely disagree that the UN is the only body that has the right to recognize another nation's independence...I mean, that goes against everything that being an independent nation means!! 

Who else is then? This is a specific question and i'm looking for a concrete answers with examples and/or justifications. I'm not looking for a "right" answer.

Quote
Also, I did NOT say that my questions were irrelevant, I said me answering them were irrelevant because they were meant for you, not me.  Let me explain, you asked the following question: "Who, and under what authority, has a right to intervene in the domestic affairs of a sovereign country that has not committed any acts of aggression against any other sovereign nation states?"  So I offered some situations where either the UN intervened or independent countries intervened, to see if you thought those were acceptable examples of just intervention.  YOUR answers to the questions answered the question YOU posed...I thought that was obvious.

So i can not ask you the same question you ask me even if i believe it will help me understand where you are coming from? Ok, i will never do that again.

I shall consider your questions irrelevant to this discussion until you answer them. They are not hard. This is not SAT.

Yes, i have answered my own questions at this point. What i'm still waiting for is for someone to do the same. You may chose to use real world examples to support your answers or stick to purely intellectual discussion. Doesn't matter to me. But please answer them. I can not be the only one with an opinion on this??? Or maybe we are all in agreement here???
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 04:47:15 am by stas » Logged

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Mnementh
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2008, 04:51:41 am »

Now that you have crossed over into the realm of being an ass, I'll step out of this conversation.

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stas
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2008, 04:54:58 am »

That's probably for the best. You should have never stepped in.
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