What is going on?

[stas]

[DragonMage]

Yeah that's not good

[stas]

no shit!

[joel]

US oil reserves are not as big as the rest of the world, therefore it's dollar isn't as driven by the dollar.  Also because of the weak US economy with the credit crisis, the US dollar has less buying power.  The market is down is all.

[stas]

All tru but usually markets don't go down by 200-300 points a day. What we had last few weeks. Also government organizatuons are being hit very hard this time around. Also not very common and is only adding to this panic.

[stas]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6LLuTru5Sio&refer=home

So now the government is taking on upon itself corporate debt and risks associated with it?
Stinky...

[Zeradul]

I've been predicting this for a long time.  It's a result of absolutely incompetent government.  We have 9.4 in national debt, almost entirely to other countries.  We have another $50 trillion already promised to social welfare in the form of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  We have military bases in 100+ countries, and our military is stretched so thing it can't even protect our country anymore, so much so that we had to form the "Department of Homeland Security"  We haven't encouraged wise energy production policy, and we are left currently reliant on two of the stupidest forms of power, Oil and Coal, both 100% unnecessary, more expensive, and pollution creating than the real, proven alternatives that exist today.

And we're off the Gold standard, so that allows the government to literally "print money" to fund anything it wants.  This is an illegal tax, that undermines every dollar in existence, and is not only extremely evil, but one of the most hurtful to the nation and world.

Interesting to see if Kai shows up in this thread, because he is convinced the debt, deficit, and wasteful spending isn't a problem, so I wonder what he'll blame for this recession.

Sometimes I think that a absolute complete depression is the only chance we have of resetting our government back into something that actually governs, and isn't just a theif at home and a thug abroad.  Osama has won, he has accomplished his goal of bankrupting us with almost no budget, no military force greater than an RPG and AK-47, and his recruitment numbers are 20x what they were.  Not to mention, his name, and the name of his group are household names around the world.

[stas]

+400 today but this came out too: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVl4JGYmkX0M&refer=home

[Ruckus]

the government is bailing it out ... just sit back and watch unbridled capitalism at its finest


and don't worry the CEOs will still get their huge bonuses and all will be well.

[Zeradul]

the government is bailing it out ... just sit back and watch unbridled capitalism at its finest

But Ruck, that is exactly the opposite of Capitalism.  The idea that the government should bail anyone out is at least statist if not socialist, depending on the reasons, but it is certainly not pure market forces.

Letting our government fuck with everything for 50 years is almost the sole reason we have the financial problems we have right now.

[Blade]

The country grew up too fast.

[joel]

the government is bailing it out ... just sit back and watch unbridled capitalism at its finest

But Ruck, that is exactly the opposite of Capitalism.  The idea that the government should bail anyone out is at least statist if not socialist, depending on the reasons, but it is certainly not pure market forces.

Ah not really if they're serving corporate purposes.

[Ruckus]

Capitalism cannot survive without bailouts. Its going to fail eventually. Greed knows no bounds.

[stas]

Yes Yes Ruck... Come to the dark side......

[m J o]

Ruck is the Emperor....

[Zeradul]

Ah not really if they're serving corporate purposes.

Exactly!

So what we have is corruption both on behalf of the government, and on certain companies trying to manipulate government to tilt the situation in their favor.

And NEITHER of those have anything to do with capitalism.  The moment government "serves corporate purposes" in any way beyond allowing trade and commerce, they have tainted the system by placing false market forces.  Anyone attempting to steal from the system or give themselves an unfair advantage is not a result of Capitalism, it's a result of someone fucking with it! (and getting away with it)

[Zeradul]

Capitalism cannot survive without bailouts. Its going to fail eventually.

Ruck, as knowledgeable as you are on many, many things, that is the most absurd thing you've ever said!  And you've said the government planned and carried out 9/11 !!!

What on earth gives you this idea?  As soon as mankind developed speech, skills and tools we've had capitalism, from barter systems on up.  It has always been with us since (yes, everywhere, even places that we don't think of as historically capitalistic) and will always be with us period.

As long as people need ways of measuring work, values of food, possessions, etc, there will always be capitalism.  This idea that you think it's some government invention is hilarious to me.  Not only will it *NOT* fail, but it *CAN NOT* fail, well at least not until we're all dead.  It's like saying Calculus will fail.  Its not something that can fail, it's not an institution, it's merely a system that measures and accounts for goods and services, and as long as there are people interested in interacting with other people, there will always be capitalism.

[Ruckus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf0Wrgairfw

[joel]

When is someone going to post Zeitgeist?

IT'S THE BANKERS I TELLS YA

[Ruckus]

IT'S THE BANKERS I TELLS YA

hurray another bailout !!!  Wow,  runs on banks like this one are sad flashbacks to the Great Depression. Thats not a good thing   

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23638138/

[Ruckus]

As long as people need ways of measuring work, values of food, possessions, etc, there will always be capitalism.  This idea that you think it's some government invention is hilarious to me.  Not only will it *NOT* fail, but it *CAN NOT* fail, well at least not until we're all dead.  It's like saying Calculus will fail.  Its not something that can fail, it's not an institution, it's merely a system that measures and accounts for goods and services, and as long as there are people interested in interacting with other people, there will always be capitalism.

Capitalism will always fail eventually. Either the wealth becomes too concentrated and those without will retake it. Or its worth will suddenly vanish (debt or devalue) and create a vacuum that will cause its entire implosion. Bailouts are its only salvation.  Calculus isn't going anywhere,  bad analogy. And Zera , when banks cannot lend, people cannot borrow thus "people cannot interact with each other" financially. The run made on Bear the other day is just a 'grizzly' (PUN INTENDED) reminder of what a capitalistic market in panic mode can bring. Lets just hope its an isolated event but I have my doubts.

[stas]

So if it fails tomorrow Ruck, what should we do?

[Ruckus]

So if it fails tomorrow Ruck, what should we do?

I hope you have a gun

[Mnementh]

Dusty does.  I'm with him.

[stas]

* stas hides under the table

all soviet/russian made weapons must be returned to me.

[Ruckus]

the government is bailing it out ... just sit back and watch unbridled capitalism at its finest


and don't worry the CEOs will still get their huge bonuses and all will be well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23711023/

 

[Zeradul]

Capitalism will always fail eventually. Either the wealth becomes too concentrated and those without will retake it. Or its worth will suddenly vanish (debt or devalue) and create a vacuum that will cause its entire implosion. Bailouts are its only salvation.  Calculus isn't going anywhere,  bad analogy. And Zera , when banks cannot lend, people cannot borrow thus "people cannot interact with each other" financially. The run made on Bear the other day is just a 'grizzly' (PUN INTENDED) reminder of what a capitalistic market in panic mode can bring. Lets just hope its an isolated event but I have my doubts.

If our currency was still backed penny for penny by the Gold in Fort Knox, then inflation wouldn't be happening.  Creating the (unconstitutional) Federal Reserve in 1913 was a big mistake.  Giving the government this giant hand up the ass of our currency has caused the current situation.  Bailouts are a band-aid that our incompetent government thinks are necessary.

I didn't finish my Calculus analogy.  Say in 1913 we started just jumping to unproven conclusions in Calculus, you know, any time we confronted a hard problem noone could solve.  Say our methodology was to examine the problem, and then make a formula to "WORK" for that experiment.  Now that fake formula we created is total BS, and that's how it is with the federal reserve.  100 years down the road, after hundreds of "FAKE" solutions and manipulations that solve the problem of the moment, but aren't valid solutions in any way, eventually that will come back to bite us in the ass.  If THIS is what you call Capitalism, then we agree, but what I describe is NOT Capitalism.

Capitalism has nothing to do with a government entity fucking with interest rates, national debt, subsidies, printing money, etc, etc.  And it certainly has NOTHING to do with endlessly going to War for no reason.  The problems we are witnessing now are catalyzed by our Wars, but they are a result of our incompetent government having FAR too much control over our currency.

Definition of Capitalism: An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

If you see anything in that definition about incompetent government allowed to relentlessly fuck with the monetary system, then maybe we can agree.  That I agree with you fully, will fail.  Just like Calculus would fail with 100 years worth of bogus "solutions".

[Zeradul]

Here's a youtube clip that does an excellent job explaining about the Gold standard, and how the economic problems we have currently (Bear Stearns included) are purely a result of our incompetent Government, and not some mystical "capitalism will always fail" theorem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6NfXk7Bvc8

[kai]

http://www.redplanetcartoons.com/



Minneapolis Star Tribune: “Pink Slip Nation.”

WASHINGTON - It’s no longer a question of recession or not. Now it’s how deep and how long. Workers’ pink slips stacked ever higher in March as jittery employers slashed 80,000 jobs, the most in five years, and the national unemployment rate climbed to 5.1 percent. Job losses are nearing the staggering level of a quarter-million this year in just three months.


John Hinderaker at Powerline:

Do you remember 1996, when Bill Clinton swept to an easy re-election victory over Bob Dole, on the basis of what pretty much everyone in the press considered a near-perfect economy? No “pink slip nation” in 1996!

Actually, though, the unemployment rate in November 1996, when Clinton rode a soaring economy to victory, was 5.4%. That’s right–three tenths of a percent higher than the “grim picture” of a “pink slip nation” painted by this month’s unemployment report.

To be fair, the unemployment rate in November 1996, while higher than the current rate, was essentially flat, while March’s 5.1% unemployment represented an increase over the extraordinarily low rates that have characterized George Bush’s presidency. Still, it makes you wonder: is the current hysterical treatment of economic news the product of a rational evaluation of the data, or is it just one more sign of the media’s desire to put a Democrat in the White House in 2009?

[Zeradul]

Are you serious?  There's FAR more to a recession than just unemployment rates................



Yay Small Government.................... Wait WHAT?