May 22, 2012, 03:44:37 pm
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Author Topic: French again....  (Read 860 times)
stas
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« on: April 08, 2008, 03:34:42 am »

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Olympic flame put out four times in Paris

...The executive board of the IOC will meet in Beijing later this week and is expected to recommend the abolition of future international torch relays.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wtorch108.xml

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Ruckus
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 10:22:37 am »

GOD THATS ...
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m J o
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 04:48:54 pm »

I think saying OLD is getting OLD!


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dusty
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 07:08:05 pm »

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Olympic flame put out four times in Paris

...The executive board of the IOC will meet in Beijing later this week and is expected to recommend the abolition of future international torch relays.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wtorch108.xml



Isn't it silly how we speak out against various countries/governments, but turn our heads at China who seems to be just as bad if not worse?
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Mnementh
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 08:20:40 pm »

Instead of actually trying to address and discuss why people are trying to extinguish the flame, they just want to get rid of the torch relay so they won't have to deal with it.  Ostriches are good at that, I hear...
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joel
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 09:23:21 pm »

As much as I hate political interference with the olympics, because it ruins it's true spirit, I see little choice in this case.
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Ruckus
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 11:35:57 pm »

Amen to that .

China is horrible but guess what they own .... 



US !
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stas
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 11:39:15 pm »

How is this the fault of China?
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Mnementh
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2008, 12:32:39 am »

I don't necessarily think we should blame China.  It is the fault of the IOC that they decided to award the Olympics to China, therefore creating all the drama surrounding the torch relay.

Yet, it is China's human rights record and Tibet policy that people are protesting against.
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Zeradul
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2008, 02:07:23 am »

Isn't it silly how we speak out against various countries/governments, but turn our heads at China who seems to be just as bad if not worse?
They should also interview the protesters about Abu-Ghraib and Guantanamo.  I don't know why we are somehow immune to human rights abuses.

And speaking of Human Rights abuses, I recommend you all do some reading about life in Tibet under the Lama class.  It's been almost 50 years since the Lama's fled from their dictatorship, so there's not alot of recent news about the topic, but it was NOT a pretty existence. (Unless you were a Lama of course!)  Noone is going to Deny China is bad (for most in China, not JUST the Tibetans), but life under the Lama class of Dictators living in opulent monasteries, while everyone else lives in utter poverty, and for roughly half the population, serfdom enforced like slavery.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/Parenti_Tibet.htm

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In 1953, the greater part of the rural population---some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000---were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death.

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A Tibetan lord would often take his pick of females in the serf population, if we are to believe one 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf: "All pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished." They "were just slaves without rights."

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Some monasteries had their own private prisons, reports Anna Louise Strong. In 1959, she visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, and breaking off hands. For gouging out eyes, there was a special stone cap with two holes in it that was pressed down over the head so that the eyes bulged out through the holes and could be more readily torn out. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disembowling.

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The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away.

All quotes are cited to their sources in that article, most are from journalists who had traveled to Tibet in the 40's and 50's.

So be careful when you voice support for the Lama's, they really just want their slaves, servants and mansions back.  And when you say human rights abuses against the (roughly 3 million) Tibetans are terrible you ALSO shouldn't overlook the roughly BILLION Chinese citizens who live under equally bad human rights abuses and poverty.

This mythology that the Tibetan dictatorship isn't as bad as the Chinese government is largely fueled in THIS county by the continued HATRED of Communism.  That and Hollywood douchebags.
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Mnementh
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 03:45:02 am »

First of all, I don't think that anyone specifically said anything about Tibet going back to being ruled by the Lama's.  Yet, in a way, you almost excused the Chinese dictatorship by indicting the previous dictatorship.  I, for one, do not support Tibet returning to the previous rule, but I do support freedom for Tibet, I support Tibetans being able to decide for themselves if they want to be ruled by the Lama's or by some other form of government/ruler/whatever.

Also, we have every right to call out China on their human rights abuses and in doing so, are in no way implying that the US doesn't have its own serious issues.  China is the topic at hand...not the US.  Focusing on one does not automatically diminish the other.  Your "preachy" tone seemed to make some assumptions that I failed to see in the previous posts.
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Zeradul
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 04:11:20 am »

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First of all, I don't think that anyone specifically said anything about Tibet going back to being ruled by the Lama's.
Ah ha!  Excellent point, but since the majority of figureheads who are out speaking towards "Freeing Tibet" they are the people at giant fund raisers for the Dalai Lama!  Those people ARE working to get the Lama's re-instated.  In general the cry for "Free Tibet" means "Chinese Leave, Lamas return"  I'm just pointing out the second half of that cry isn't an improvement.  I agree completely with you though, the cry SHOULD be "Chinese Leave, Tibetans rise up and form a democracy" although that is hard because the Lamas had worked hard to censor and keep ignorant their people.  At least the Chinese have brought basic technology like running water, electricity, and secular education, so maybe the Tibetan people will be educated enough to form a government of their own.

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Yet, in a way, you almost excused the Chinese dictatorship by indicting the previous dictatorship.
No! No! No! I was very careful to condemn them as well when I said:
"when you say human rights abuses against the (roughly 3 million) Tibetans are terrible you ALSO shouldn't overlook the roughly BILLION Chinese citizens who live under equally bad human rights abuses and poverty."

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Focusing on one does not automatically diminish the other.
Exactly!  That is why I pointed out both the US's mistakes as well as Tibet's.
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"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table." - old legal aphorism
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