DING DONG GM IS DEAD

[Zeradul]

http://gm-volt.com/2009/06/01/general-motors-files-for-bankruptcy/

This is exactly what I said would happen.  The "BAILOUT" has become a "GIFT".

All Bailouts are terrible ideas.  We gave them Billions and they ran laughing all the way to the bank, cashed their checks, paid themselves loads of money, and just a few months later, file for bankruptcy.

I hope that their assets are broken up, sold to the highest bidder, and that money should go to pay back the government bailout.

I'm glad GM is dead, it's a wonderful day for technology and progress.

[Zeradul]

This is not a bailout, its a loan.

But right now why does a loan offend you so much?

Because it's only a loan if the big three somehow magically turn it around and succeed?  Why would it be any different starting now?  As soon as they run out of money and fail (again) then it becomes a gift.

Does ANYONE still think ANY bailout is a good idea?  I guess it's good that GM failed even FASTER than expected because now as other industries fail, we won't be so incompetent as to give them Billions of dollars on death's fucking door.

[Zeradul]

[stas]

Whether bailout is good or bad depends on how people look at US economy as a whole. If majority of the people believe that US economy is a capitalist system, then any kind of bailout is inherently bad. If on the other hand it is socialist, then it is not so bad.

And no, you can't have it both ways.

[Zeradul]

I'm not talking about if it's philosophically good or bad, I'm talking about if it's is ACTUALLY good or bad to bailout a failing company, especially one in an obsolete industry.

Can anyone argue that it's a GOOD thing to give a failing industry hundreds of billions of dollars in gifts.

[stas]

Sure! Not only it is good, it must be done. Auto industry is a strategic industry in any country that has it. Governments must keep it afloat and keep outsiders away from it. Or one day you make wake up in a place that can't build a bike.

[Zeradul]

That's absurd.  If a country can't build a bike, (and for some reasons international trade has ceased) then the financial incentive to learn how to build a bike is immense, and someone is going to learn how, and make BANK.

You don't actually think that building cars is hard do you?  If so, lets compare the complexity to the computer industry.  A Computer is at least a thousand times more complex than a automobile, so why aren't we concerned about buying nearly all of our circuit boards from Malaysia, Korea, and Thailand?

International trade is not going away.  If it did, we have brilliant engineers who can build anything we need.  Every educated nation does.

[stas]

Haha, you think you can just learn overnight how to build (put together) a car? Put aside financial incentive for now, it takes years and years of experience to get it right. That's is the reason why GM is able to sell their brands to companies overseas. Others are buying these crappy car brands because they can get access to technology behind car making. That's a fact.

And about computers, US government does not buy computers OR parts from companies located in China for example. Why do you think is that?

International trade is not going anywhere until someone gets upset and takes all of their toys away. And then what will you do?

[Zeradul]

Yes, stas, in the scope of things, cars are ridiculously simple.

What does the government's purchase of computers have to do with anything?  I thought this was about protecting American industry!?!?!  Clearly computers are more complex than cars, so should they not be MORE important to protect, (and build here?)

International trade will happen until who takes who's toys away?  WTF are you talking about?

[stas]

Dude, if cars are so simple to make, then why are Chinese/India/South American cars are shit??? Why can't they just make good cars like everyone else. Its so simple!

You brought up example of computers to say that you can always depend on the international trade to get things that you need. Well, i don't think so. You can only buy things if someone is willing to sell them.

Computers are no more important than cars. Computer chip will not take you to Wallmart 50 miles away to buy your groceries. They are both important in their own ways.

[stas]

Well here you go:

GM unloads Hummer to Chinese buyer

Don't be surprised if the same Hummer costs you 20% more in 5 years, IF they are willing to sell it to you.

[Stinger]

The Hummer is an inefficient gas guzzler that no one should own unless their day to day life includes off-roading  for non-recreational purposes. A country that builds shitty cars will do just fine with it, it's right up their alley.

Dude, if cars are so simple to make, then why are Chinese/India/South American cars are shit???

Dude, our cars are shit. That's why they're dying.. Their business model was literally "make shitty cars that break fast and require lots of maintenance so we can make more money." They were being greedy fucks manipulating the system by producing inferior shit and expecting us to like it.

American cars are dead and/or dying because they're shit. We don't need to protect shit, we need to distance ourselves from shit. Why are people sugar-coating this, talking about how important the car industry is? This argument has nothing to do with people wanting to keep the shitty cars around for the shitty cars, this is all about jobs.

Well folks; An assload of the jobs in US auto were built up on spreadsheets with money that didn't really exist without this "intentional shitty car" plan. See, if cars made here last as long as cars made in, say, Japan (who will ALWAYS sell to us, always. And in a world war, they'd be a first allies), then the auto companies would have to make significantly less of them.

Way, WAY more than half of the jobs in US auto are built on accounting practices that can't be sustained with good business practices. That's why, even after all of the best employees get absorbed into the new companies that buy their plants, there will still be lots of unemployed people who need to find a new career. Because their old career was employing a few dozen-thousand people that it really couldn't afford to without ripping off the people who loyally bought their product, knowing it was inferior, because "we have to buy American!"

What Zera said; I'm ecstatic to see GM dead. Now what can we do about every other company that took our money without handing us a solid gameplan on how they'd earn it back for us first?

Oh, and yeah, international trade is going no where. Like I said, Japan loves us, and they make cars real well. Buy a Honda and stop bitching, your new car will last you 30 years and get 40 MPG on a bad day. 37 if it's old, that's what my '97 civic gets these days.

[Stinger]

Fun numbers, here's a chart of how many people are in the US, how many are drivers, and how many cars are in the US from 1960 to 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States#Vehicle_and_population_ratios_.28millions.29_since_1960

Now, the newest numbers here are from 2003, but if you look at the trend you can rest assured the ratio kept climbing right up until the recent months where the whole car industry slid in to the shitter.

Since 1970 we've had more cars in the country than we've had licensed drivers. As of 2003 we have 1 car for every 1.2 American citizens. Again, these numbers are actually likely a bit worse now, this data is more than 5 years old.

With 231 million cars in the US right now, why do we even need to build more? We have a national surplus of used cars! Hell, some of them are even good quality, they're not all made here! We really, seriously, don't need to build OR import another car into this country for years. We'd be alright. That's how ridiculously unimportant the car industry is to this country right now.

US auto is a dinosaur. Just let it die already with a modicum of dignity intact, so we can all try to remember the good things as we visit their highlights in museums.

[Zeradul]

Chinese, Indian, and South American cars are mostly shitty for one reason.  They are built to be purchased by relatively poor societies.

If you can't sell a $15,000 car in a region, then you have to lower the quality until you have something people can afford to buy.  These car makers aren't low quality due to lack of ability, if anything they're ingenious, from a standpoint of getting something that works for what the economy can afford.  Japan, Europe and the US can afford whatever it takes, and so we get the best, and that is Honda, Subaru, and Toyota.

GM is only shitty because people (like Ruck and Mystic) actually think that by buying Mexican made cars that they are somehow helping to employ American workers, and if you are deciding to buy a brand for Patriotic reasons, then that allows them to not be competitive in the market.  If they're not competitive, then they're shitty, and if they're shitty, they're dead.

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GM dieing is the best possible thing to happen to auto technology and auto industry since four wheel drive.

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Oh and BTW stas, earlier you said something about it was in the "strategic interest" of the US Government to protect car companies?  Why the fuck is that?  You don't actually think we'll see another war that is primarily land based do you?  Land wars (as in tanks shooting each other) are a thing of the past.  Even the last two wars in the middle east 98+% of the enemy land vehicles were taken out by precision bombing.  We can even send bombs through bridges to hit a tank hiding underneath now.  Ground wars are only found in history books.

[mystic]

who cares.

[stas]

Zera: I won't argue about the nature of modern wars here. That's not the point of this topic. But i would like to see opinions of people like briman on your statement of how ground wars are things of the past. Where are you getting 98%+ number from?
Look, clearly we are seeing things differently here. You guys obviously believe that there is no harm in closing and outsourcing manufacturing and high tech industries (yes yes, auto is high tech. you don't have to agree) inside the US to other parts of the world. You argue that it will always be possible to buy these products in the international markets. Well that's fine. As long as you are aware of the possible consequences then we are done. Personally, if i was an American citizen, i would not want GM or Chrysler to file for bankruptcy, sell majority of their assets to firms in other countries, fire a bunch of people and hope that tomorrow everything will be a-ok. I guess im in the minority on this even though I don?t really care one way or another on this.

[mystic]

who cares

[Ruckus]

Glad you are so happy Zera. Getting pleasure from others pain is pathetic. Go masturbate to this...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a7IYfjQkC2RM

Yeehaw, those bombs cause purdy explosions!

[Stinger]

The best possible thing that could happen for Detroit is having new businesses grow in Detroit. That's the truth. The single best thing for a city that does have my sympathies in this fucked up times is for the workers to train at new jobs, for businesses that are there and doing well to expand, for business opportunities that aren't currently being utilized to start, to grow a new economy from the ground up.

You know why Zera and I, and a few million others, are angry? Because that was true a year ago. But hey, lets not go back that far. The first month after shit hit the fan, that was true. We knew that this was doomed. The numbers simply didn't add up no matter how you sliced it, and rather than evolving willingly when times got tough, "big auto" decided to get "golden parachutes." Seriously, I can't believe what side of this you're on, Ruck. This is textbook corporate fatcats fucking American citizens... Based solely on how you spoke about Wallstreet, I'd have expected you to call for the death of GM management, and demanding accountability in the form of cash for GM's numerous undeniable offenses against their own loyal consumer base.

Big auto is to blame for the loss of jobs. Big auto made so many mistakes that it was doomed, ran itself in to the ground with short-term gain strategies blindly ignoring this endgame as the inescapable result.

You can call us heartless all you want. I don't want people to lose their livelihoods. That doesn't change the fact that if you make your living doing something that can't support you, then you can't make a living out of it no matter how horribly unfair it is by asking everyone else to pump their money into a machine with leaks that never get plugged.

Shit happens. I'm a pragmatist, and no matter how sad and tragic this is (and it is sad and tragic), it doesn't mean anything else could or should have happened. The business model literally didn't work, and the company had endless chances and government benefits for decades to help it along. Big auto killed themselves. It sucks that there's so much collateral damage, but this had to happen. If saying that makes me an asshole, then call me an asshole. I'd rather be a perceptive asshole than a delusional follower.

[mystic]

who cares

[Stinger]

Cute. I live in Hagerstown, Maryland. Move here in bulk if you'd like, it'd be funny. Whatever Detroit is, I know it's not the crack capital of the U.S. of A. We also have the highest concentration of retards per capita, our founders were escaped mental patients you see. I moved here from D.C. and the history lessons upon arriving were brilliant.

What I said was, the best thing for Detroit right now is to grow new business. You can sit here and yell all you want about how horrible it is that everyone there is fucked, and I'll agree with you, but what was the other option, oh wise one?

Is there some magical way everyone could have kept their jobs WITHOUT sinking another 30-100 billion taxpayer dollars that won't come back out, which will only make it take an extra 6 months before everyone loses their jobs anyway?

No? So you're just talking like we're evil incarnate for no reason? Cool then. Carry on.

[m J o]

hmm, my boat has a GM motor, 454 7.4L hopefully parts will still be available within the foreseeable future, they possibly could drop their marine line..

[Zeradul]

I am truly shocked by these comments!!!

Getting pleasure from others pain is pathetic.

What??  The only people in "pain" here are the taxpayers who got robbed and the incompetent GM management that should have been fired decades ago.  They're not really in pain though as their golden parachutes guide them down.  Every employee good at his or her job will be hired back in a similar job within the year as GM's niche is replaced.  You guys act like with GM gone, all of a sudden the demand for cars will be nonexistent.  C'mon guys, you know that's not how it works.

i would not want GM or Chrysler to file for bankruptcy, sell majority of their assets to firms in other countries, fire a bunch of people and hope that tomorrow everything will be a-ok.

  Stas, why do you feel this matters?  Do you honestly think that because GM failed, NO other company could possibly succeed in with their (now up for grabs) market share?  C'mon man!

Look at all those Mexicans loosing their jobs Zera. Fucking dirty Detroit beaners.

Ruck, all those people will be hired back by whomever fills GM's niche in the market.  Nothing changes except one massive, incompetent, and festering pile of management bureaucracy is gone.  The workers were never to blame, and they will be hired back.  Their management (and their unions) failed them, and now there will be competition to fill this void.  And WTF is with the racism, that serves no purpose here.  WTF man?

The three brands with the highest proportion (in dollar value) of American made parts are: Honda, Ford, and Toyota in THAT ORDER.  GM cars are almost strictly based in Mexico (did you see "Roger and Me" ?) and GM ran Detroit into the ground.

I don't understand you guys??? Mystic, Ruck, Stas, etc, why are you defending this TERRIBLE company that fucked over a great city?  Watch Roger and Me again if you've forgotten.  I'm speechless.  I'm actually flabbergasted that Ruck is defending CEO's and Corporate Fat Cats that just spent six months stealing Billions of dollars during a bailout that HE WAS AGAINST?!?!?!??! 

WTF is going on here?

Even the very liberal John Stewart LAMPOONED GM, and the Obama administration for this absurd series of blunders, the cherry on top being the announcement yesterday that the government will be giving GM ANOTHER 30 FUCKING BILLION DOLLARS in the coming weeks.  LOL WUT?

---------

I wonder where DD and Kai stand on this.  I know where Neo stands...

[Stinger]

It doesn't matter how people really feel about the real, actual issues, Zera. This isn't some bank we're talking about, these people make the Pontiac! And now they won't! Oh noes! We all have to cry! Those of us who aren't crying are obviously heartless bastards!

I'm shocked too, but for different reasons. The ability to throw reason out the window and adopt clearly false justifications as soon as the shit hits the fan over something you love is amazing. People who we know are anti-"corporate greed and misconduct" are actually for it, as long as it keeps American's temporarily employed making a product that no one wants to buy.

Hypocrisy, much?

What Zera said, anyone who doesn't suck at their jobs will get rehired when the factories are bought up by people who actually have the money to do something with. Yes, the new jobs will often be working for foreign companies, but if you have a problem with that, then you're a fucking racist, making the rest of your opinion, to me, about as important as a pile of shit.

Oh yeah; Whoever hires from the now vacant work-pool of ex-car manufacturers will be paying less for the job than the people are getting now. You know why? Because the employees of the defunct car companies were almost all being paid more than the monetary value of the services they provide! This is another union thing, see, the factory workers were all being led (albeit usually blindly) by exceptionally greedy union leaders that demanded benefits damn near unparalleled in other fields while simultaneously demanding wages that are higher than the work was worth as well.

GM is Dead in No Small Part Due to the Greed and Misappropriation of Powers by the Workers' Union.

See, if the workers had been willing to get paid a wage that actually represented the value of their work (including their benefits) then maybe, MAYBE, it would have taken an extra 2-3 years of corporate-level stupid fucking business practices to drag the whole system in to shit.

Plenty of blame to go around, folks. Just remember the headline from 2008, the not-so-distant past:  "GM Workers Threaten Strike Over Threats to Dry Up Company Funded Viagra."

Seriously. The more upset anyone is getting over what I'm saying in this thread, the less I'm inclined to view their opinions as anything other than unapologetically arrogant, and short-sighted. And if I think you're being arrogant? Fuck, that's saying something.

[Ruckus]

Well here you go:

GM unloads Hummer to Chinese buyer

Don't be surprised if the same Hummer costs you 20% more in 5 years, IF they are willing to sell it to you.

The Chummer !!

[kai]

---------

I wonder where DD and Kai stand on this.  I know where Neo stands...

Well we've had enough capitalism for a while  .  Let's go socialist and see if it works or if it messes everything up AGAIN. That being said I'm not an economist and I'm kind of tired of getting worked up over politics.  You get what you vote for America.

I'm going to keep on trying to get a good job, thinking about going Air Force because govt seems pretty good job security for the next 8 years (though maybe not long term since Dems are usually ant-military). Maybe I can get a good govt job when I get out.

Zera and Stinger pretty much said what I think. Dumb businesses should fail. Smart businesses should succeed. Times will change. People will survive. The American standard of living is so effing high compared to other countries you almost have to try to starve by refusing help. If other countries can get through crappy times so can we. Bother me when there are huge lines for soup and bread.

[Ruckus]

In all reality I hate to see people lose their way of lives especially at the direction of those incompetent few who direct the ship. I feel for the families, not just of the union workforce but also the middle to lower management . Blame can be cast in many directions but the end result is the same for those mentioned before. I was hoping the Government's assistance would have at least bought enough time to sustain the company past the consumer drought that plagues us now. It didn't ... Sigh .. so I guess restructure and hope for the best. 

My thoughts and condolences to the families affected.

[Ruckus]

The American standard of living is so effing high compared to other countries 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

[kai]

i didn't mean all other countries, i meant all those yellow and red ones on that map compared to the luscious green of this country

[Zeradul]

In all reality I hate to see people lose their way of lives especially at the direction of those incompetent few who direct the ship.

Ruck,  Noone is losing their job.  The demand for cars today is EXACTLY what demand for cars was last week.  The people who no longer work for GM will be re-hired by a successful brand.  The only people that DID lose their jobs are upper management.  It's hard to get another job in the auto industry when "Oversaw GM financial collapse" is on your resume.

The majority of the workers at GM fucking kick ass at their jobs will be re-hired shortly by any of GM's competitors who are expanding to take over GM's market share (and many no doubt have already been re-hired)

Same with all of GM's suppliers.  They will just shift and start making these parts for GM's competitors.

It is a wonderful time in the Auto industry.  A BUNCH of crappy exec's and union officials are out on their ass from one of the worst companies in the last 20 years, and all the healthy, successful companies now get to hire GM's best and brightest engineers, as well as many, many, very experienced assembly line workers and so as these companies expand, they get entire factories for cheap, as well as thousands of employees that have already been trained.

It's an incredibly healthy thing for this and any industry.