Domestic auto dilema

Hey Rucky.

Just a quick add-on to an earlier statement by someone else; My girlfriend also came running over with a “What are you looking at?!” due to your signature. She’s caught me with a lot worse, so there’s not a problem… But just wanted to throw out that your sig is good for that :slight_smile:

Anywho.

Didn’t GM’s union make a big stink and force the company to pay for the workers Viagra? There’s one example off the top of my head of the union having something to do with the companies demise. Guess I’m a fucking tool. My mother will be happy to have someone else confirm it.

Unions add expenses that don’t need to be added. Healthcare is a fine one, no complaints there. I think it’s cool when a company provides its workers with healthcare. Very generous thing, very cool. Striking (or threatening to strike) over minor changes to the healthcare benefits? Big douchebag move.

A strike by its very definition hurts the company, so a union by its very definition is built around bullying people with damaged assets.

Whoa, deja vu…

Yeah, we’ve had this conversation… in this thread actually. So I won’t bother rehashing it any further.

Let the “pure LOL” continue, buddy. May you never be snuck up on by an evil fat-cat.

http://www.youtube.com/v/VHyheIv1KGg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-l-borosage/herbert-hoover-time_b_150537.html

What was the sticking point? It wasn’t getting rid of the CEOs that drove the companies into the ditch. It wasn’t forcing the creditors to cut their loans in exchange for stock, giving them a stake in the future. It wasn’t accepting an auto czar to enforce the agreement and drive a transition to fuel efficient cars. That was agreed to. No, led by benighted Tennessee Senator Bob Corker – known previously solely for his “call me” race bait campaign ad that helped him win election – Republicans wanted to break the union, and punish the workers.

They insisted that the UAW agree to cutting workers wages and benefits immediately to match the average hourly compensation paid by non-union foreign auto companies based in the South. This would entail cuts in pay by about 50% within the next months. For Republicans, the problem wasn’t the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. It wasn’t wrong-headed management that was skewered when soaring gas prices wiped out their SUV cash cows. It wasn’t the Wall Street dominated trade policies that sacrificed US manufacturing behind a high dollar that made it profitable to move plants and production abroad and aided foreign competitors. It wasn’t the burdens of health care costs that make US manufacturers less competitive.

No, for the Republican Senators, the bailout was a chance for a little class warfare. Why should an autoworker make $50-60,000 a year, plus health care? The workers should accept half that and be happy. Autoworkers have agreed to wage givebacks and benefit cuts over the last years. They pledged even deeper cuts in relation to the agreement. But their sacrifices weren’t great enough nor the cuts fast enough for Corker and the Republicans.

Now imagine telling a family that lives on $50-60,000 a year that they will make one-half that in six months. They’ve got mortgages, kids in college or the costs of children, and credit card debts just like the rest of us. Outside of the Wall Street bankers whom the administration has succored without asking them to slash their wages in half, how many Americans could survive a cut of half their paycheck in a few months, without going bankrupt? How many Senators who pay themselves six figure incomes with lavish pensions and health care could manage an immediate 50% reduction in their salaries? (Most of them, come to think of it, since the Senate is a millionaires’ club).

Yep. Unions demand better than the fair-market value of their jobs. There are always other people willing to do the jobs, to happily do the jobs, for less money.

A union demands that a worker be paid more for the sole reason of him being a part of a special club. He doesn’t add anything extra over this man over here, who is just as qualified but isn’t in the club, and is willing to do it for less money.

A union, again, is a group of employees that make demands of their employees. When the demand is something like “We’re getting black lung because you don’t provide us with a safe work environment”, then that union is 100% needed, just, and I would back 100% in fixing such a great injustice. But when the demand is for a salary much higher than those not in the club, and a benefit package that makes your services more expensive than they’re literally worth in dollars to the company, then a union is wrong. Unfair to the company. You’re demanding more than your fair-market value, and holding the business hostage over something that the company literally can’t afford to give you.

Unions, like I said, can be very important in some cases. In other cases, they cause bankruptcies. Sorry folks, but this isn’t news. I agree that it’s fucked up that all these people who were making enough to feed their whole family with a job because of the union will now be unemployed. But the truth of the matter is that those good, honest, hard working men and women were making more money than the company could afford to pay them and be profitable. That’s the “fair market value of human assets” I was talking about in my first posts in this thread.

[quote]Now imagine telling a family that lives on $50-60,000 a year that they will make one-half that in six months.
[/quote]
No need to imagine. We’ll be seeing a lot of it. Like I said, this is the beginning, and as sad as this is, it had to happen. Saying that doesn’t make me cold, I’d venture to say I do more for others than most. It makes me a realist. Those men and women need to go find new jobs. They may make less money, but what they make will be a fair wage as determined by how much money the product they make is worth, and by how many other people are just as qualified and willing to do the work.

These people aren’t the first to lose their jobs, and they won’t be the last. My girlfriend worked for Value City up until earlier this year. Ever heard of them? They’re a close-out style big-box store. Or they were, they were losing money constantly. My girl worked there for 6 and a half years, was a due-paying member of the union and a “team leader”, low-level management. She had great medical. Dental that covered her big bills when she had to have some minor teeth repair, saved her well over a thousand dollars. All you had to do to get the benefits was work there 9 months, and you’re golden. Real great for the workers.

There was a problem though. Value City sucked. Everyone knew it. Their business model worked on such a thin profit margin that it was a miracle they stayed open as long as they did. When they shut down there were people who had worked there for 23 years. They were like a family, a real strong union. With pay much higher than the industry standard for people who did their jobs and weren’t in a union. And damn-near full benefits, for working as stockers, cashiers and customer service. Job that could be learned quickly, and can be performed by practically anyone whose has some basic training.

See where I’m going with this? It sucked, but Value City died because they couldn’t make more money than it cost to run the business. It sucked, lots of people lost their jobs, my girlfriend included. You know what the government did to stop those people from losing their jobs? Nothing. And that’s good!

Unions are bad as often as they are good. This is fact. If someone next door to you will do your job for half the money, and be grateful for the opportunity, then your job is worth half what you’re getting paid. It’s a sad case, no doubt. My heart goes out to the families who are going to have a real shitty Christmas, and possibly a shitty couple of months. But I said it before; Everyone has to find a new job in their life, most of us more than once. It’s not the end of the world.

Put out your resume, apply to different jobs, and do what you half to do. I’m sorry these people are in a shitty spot, but there was fuck-all choice in the matter. Their union was getting them paid more money than their services could earn. They need to go find something else they can do that’s worth more, or they need to live with less money. Calling if unfair doesn’t change the situation, and like I said, we’re all going to be there soon enough.

So we give two out of the three companies 17 billion.

And article on said; http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html?hp

[quote]While Mr. Obama has broadly insisted that the automakers radically increase the fuel efficiency of their fleets, reduce carbon emissions and save the maximum number of jobs possible, he will have just nine weeks after taking office to press for a detailed transformation of an industry whose problems have been building for three decades.
[/quote]
Yeah… Its not like 9 weeks is a short amount of time to fix 30 years worth of shit that has the companies more than a decade behind their foreign competition. Also, we pressured Canada into giving them another 4 billion, because they felt that if they didn’t, the companies would completely “repatriate” in America and leave them high and dry.

[quote]Already, Ron Gettelfinger, the president of the United Automobile Workers union, said he was pleased that the administration acted on the loan requests, but said the president added ?unfair conditions? that singled out blue-collar workers.

Mr. Gettelfinger said the union expected to appeal to Mr. Obama to alter the expectations for wage and benefit cuts. According to Treasury Department officials who drafted the wording, Mr. Obama would be free to change the requirements and loosen the standards, especially on how much workers would have to give up.
[/quote]
But no, Unions aren’t selfish or anything. I mean, companies that shouldn’t have just got one last massive lifeline on the expressed condition that their workers be forced to work for industry average (Read: fair) pay, which is a uniquely patriotic and American idea, by the way, and their first response is “Fuck you. We’re going to go behind your back and try to force them to keep paying us more than we’re worth, even though it’s now become public that that’s exactly what we’re asking for.”

Yeah… being asked to work for the same amount of money that other people are willing to do the job for is an “unfair condition”… How fucking racists is it to insist that you’re worth more than other people who do the same job better than you because you’re an American? Oh, well, I guess it’s not technically racist since he also says he’s worth more than an American who can do the job just as well because they’re not in his special club… OK, I admit it, it’s not racist. Just fucking selfish and amoral.

[quote]In Detroit, a visibly relieved Rick Wagoner, G.M.?s chairman, told reporters that the loans would allow the automakers to pay their bills and prevent a financial crisis from spreading through the industry?s suppliers and dealers.
[/quote]
You guys got your wish. Companies that have gone 20 years with the business model “Be intentionally inefficient to make them buy more, faster than they should” are being given a 17 billion dollar “loan” that we’ll likely not get back. Our government is abandoning free market ideals at a time when free market ideals could save America, because our country has a hard-on for Detroit steel.

I hope I’m wrong about what’s about to happen in this country, folks. But I don’t think I am. Did anyone see how Henry Paulson took this opportunity to try to get the second half of the money given to the banks out because of this? The money that was going towards trying to rebuild the nations shattered economy as a whole? That’s now been given out so that people who spent decades intentionally making a shitty product can have another chance to make sports cars “fuel efficient?”

If GM and Chrysler don’t stop making every vehicle that gets less than 35 MPG, then they’re fucking assholes who squandered this “Golden Parachute”. Because yeah, in this case, the entire fucking companies are both being “greedy fatcat CEOs.” They squandered their good fortune on shit, then went running for help when their world fell down around them due to easily foreseeable long-term downsides of mindless fucking greed on a massive scale.

Even if they suddenly have a “Christmas Miracle” and fix everything, they’re still likely to fail in a free market (IE, the world) because they’re so far behind their competition. Just wait and see how long it takes for them to ask for another loan.

Merry Christmas, auto-industry. Enjoy your present, try not to spend it all in one place.

Let’s see if they at least try to follow Toyota’s footsteps. Toyota is trying to double it’s Hybrid fleet by 2010 and they are also spending a lot of money in R&D of hybrid technology trying to be more efficient and lower costs. Let’s hope they use the money for the best and make a new game plan, although IMO the money was not well spent in bailing them out.

I fully expect GM to invest even more money in shitty ass SUV’s.

The absolute best part of it… It came from the bank bailout. U.S. taxpayers do not get hit with additional ding. The entire reasoning G.W. for giving this loan is what most of us small businesses needed, controlled bankruptcy. If they go under now, Government gets their money back, small business has time to adjust. Overall, it is the best available solution for the country.

Autoworker Unions, I have been in many MANY of the factories. I will say this, Unions have made the average blue collar worker lazy. I have gone in Ford, GM, and American Axle (GM) at various times and seen people playing cards, reading, even sleeping in the open. Talked to the engineers in charge of those lines and his response was “I can’t do anything discipline wise, unless the machine stops running.” The machines the union people run these days are 85% automated, inspection included. So out of an eight hour day the average person works maybe two. That said there is a stench that follows the union in the conditions they have created on the floors of the companies they work for.

There is room for the auto union to make concessions, they still have the best in health care… Hell, most every small business I know has the employees pay at least 10% per month. If the unions want to help themselves and not take a huge hit… Why not reduce the union dues that pay people like Gettelfinger and many of his cronies, and lobbyists and all the political bull crap that is not needed. Cut the dues in half make that the amount of their salary that gets taken away and there you go…

Ruck, this is not all unions, just the manufacturing unions i speak of. I do not know anything about the others and are not part of my comments. So don’t go picking on me!! :angel:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28344700/

Did I just miss something , they are non-union right ?

  Those non-union employees must have brought them down. They should all be fired or at least make them take a pay cut and reduce their benefits, oh wait they don't have any benefits. 

Well shit they must be LAZY non-union workers then to cause their company to take such a massive hit like this. I’m sure the company will make those non-union, lazy ass workers pay for this travesty.

From your article, Ruck.

[quote]While Japan’s automakers are in far better financial shape than their cash-strapped American counterparts, the global slowdown is hitting them hard.
[/quote]
Yeah, see, they’ve been doing so well for so long that they’re going to be OK though. That’s the thing you’re conveniently ignoring in an attempt to support your biased opinion. Here’s another clip from that article you linked;

[quote]Toyota said it will reduce temporary workers at its Japan plants to about 3,000 by March from an earlier 6,000. Full-time employees will have job security.

Toyota is a relatively old-style Japanese company that offers lifetime employment, and only in recent years has hired and let go of temporary workers to adjust production. It was reviewing overseas jobs but had not reached a decision, it said.
[/quote]
Temps, Rucky. It says right in their name that they were hired on an expendable basis. People do those jobs all the time, here too, and being let go is by its very definition your job the second you no longer become worth your weight. See… That’s called being smart. Your article shows that this company is flat-out guaranteeing that they will not let go any of their full time employees because of this, and they promise flat-out that they’ll make a profit even if shit gets a whole lot worse than it is now, because they’ve been preparing for this since the inception of the company.

Thanks for posting that article, Ruck. You make my point for me. Japan is better at this than us. They don’t need help. They’ll be fine. Our guys? They need help, and they’ll still likely not be “fine.” We’re sinking money. It was a bad investment. It was stupid, and against the very principles of business that we need to start using if we have any hope of slowing down our rush into the second great depression.

Mystic, I have to respectfully disagree with the following.

That’s not the best part, man, that’s one of the worst parts. That money was supposed to go to the banks.

You see, my whole problem with the auto bailout was that it’s an unfair advantage thrown to undeserving businesses. As fucked up as the bank bailout is, the money was being put directly back into the banks for the sole purpose of easing the quality of life downturns that we’re all going to be experiencing soon. Again, that’s why the car companies have conditions and the banks didn’t: Helping the banks helps all of us! Helping the auto companies helps a very small number of us, and at the expense of all of us, and making it suck more for everyone when all the other businesses start going under.

Hey, so, now that we’ve set a precedent of giving out loans from the government to keep business who legitimately failed in business a little longer, how long do you think it’ll be before someone else asks? And will that next company be wrong to even ask? I mean, hell, if the government will bail out that business, why not the mom and pop across the street? Or the small business that was operating on a razor thin profit margin that’s about to go out of business when no one has the money to afford their products any more?

Did you know that off-brand soda is experiencing an intense spike in popularity? Pepsi and Coke are both so expensive now to pay for all their woefully cost-inefficient branding, and store-brand “Cola” (with it’s non-existent additional overhead for marketing, and it’s cheap generic packaging) is flying off the shelves at a record pace. Pepsi and Coke better start running real lean, or else I’m sure we’ll see “The Cola Wars 2: This Time, It’s Judicial!” I wonder if Coke will be eligible for a second payout later down the line that Pepsi won’t be, because of market share?

This was a horrible thing to do. It’s selfish, and it’s going to hurt all of us more than it could possibly help you, for this short period of time before it catches up with you again and you end up in the same spot as the rest of us.

This was selfish. Pure and simple. A bad investment at a time when bad investments will hurt everyone in the country. You’ll have to excuse me if I’m unwilling to see this 17 billion dollar punch in America’s nose as a moral victory.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28337800/

Yeah, remember me saying that the bank bailout was fucked up too? Doesn’t change shit. We all need them, very few need the big 3. Plus that was last year, before the bailout. I kinda doubt you’ll be seeing any bonuses now.

Are you going to add anything that we haven’t already covered?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/3141139302_45d5b3b0a6_o.jpg

Boom.

Hah, good shit. I miss Calvin and Hobbes.

Chrysler is asking for another 3 billion http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=383490

Fuck the Detroit auto industry in the ear with a sand based lubricant. What? You want more money? That last batch of money we shouldn’t have given you isn’t enough? You’re too big to fail? Fuck you.

It’s great to know that in the middle of a financial apocalypse that the companies that America is known for are all quick to line up to rape the shit out of the country as a whole. It’s really heart warming. “Joke” or not, the porn industry requests aren’t going to stop until they’re accepted or declined. Individual cities have requested bailouts, also zoos. The US postal service requested a bailout, and if the private sector’s mail services are kicking their ass so badly they can’t adapt, then they deserve to die out too.

The slope has been greased up, and now everyone is sliding down. And now so many people who didn’t want to draw the line for the auto industry are saying we should draw it now! “I’ll fight tooth and nail for the auto bailout! Yay, we got the bailout! What? People who don’t make cars are in the exact same situation? Fuck them, I already got my money! Bailouts are wrong!”

This is pathetic. Hypocrisy and self-preservation at its finest. We opened the door, and now everyone’s trying to run through. The companies who ran through first went right back out, and got back in line to try to go through the door again. Fuck the US car industry. I hope it dies fast, and that the government can sell off its remains to make up for a portion of the money they stole from us when we decided we didn’t want to buy their shit mobiles in the first place.

GM is asking for 4 more i believe.

Dammit, I was trying to post in the new thread, and now I can’t delete this post. In other news, GM is Dead: http://www.bkp-society.com/index.php?topic=3356.0